Elephant in the CFP Committee Room

#77
#77
DaddyChad said:
They could've scored again. Oklahoma was beaten soundly. I'm not sure if a 11 point loss is more palatable than an 18 point loss
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True. But the fact remains, they didnt steam roll them. Bama had their first string in the whole game. OU put up a much better game than the vast majority thought. I remember seeing some saying Bama wiukd win by 3 or 4 TDs. Didnt happen.
 
#78
#78
VOL_Lyfe said:
true, but Murray was the most dangerous player they had to face. Clemson is good, but has no one comparable to Murray.
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I’m going out on a limb here and predict now that Clemson loses by 3 TD....if OU couldn’t do nothing what makes you think Clemson will? Only chance in hell of winning that game is both Bama QB go down for the count...and we all know that’s not happening...
 
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#79
#79
diehardvolsfan said:
I’m going out on a limb here and predict now that Clemson loses by 3 TD....if OU couldn’t do nothing what makes you think Clemson will? Only chance in hell of winning that game is both Bama QB go down for the count...and we all know that’s not happening...
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Clemson has a defense. I think Bama still wins but I think Clemson can give them a game.
 
#80
#80
Brave Volunteer said:
No, they dont! Of their "tough" games, how many do they play back to back? Also, they have the luxury of not having to play a conference championship game. They need to join a power 5 conference or not be considered.
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You're moving the goalposts. So now it is a matter of having tough games back to back. How many tough games did Alabama play back to back this year? Or Clemson? What was Clemson's best regular season win...at an 8-4 A&M team? Squeaking by Camping World Bowl champ Syracuse at home? They didn't exactly play juggernauts either. You're holding ND to a standard you don't hold the other P5 teams to. I think there is a conflation of "independent" with "don't play nobody!" ND clearly doesn't have the athletes any of the other playoff teams do, but saying their schedule sucked doesn't hold water.

ND played a lot of good programs this year. Michigan, Stanford, Virginia Tech, Florida St, and USC. None of those schools were exactly elite this year and it turned out that Syracuse was actually the highest ranked team they defeated (based on ranking at the time). They scheduled good programs - they can't control exactly how good their quality opponents are going to be in any given year.

I do with that ND would join a conference and play in a conference title game, but as long as the economics of their situation allow them to be independent they will do so. Tennessee, or any other school, would do the same thing.
 
#81
#81
05_never_again said:
You're moving the goalposts. So now it is a matter of having tough games back to back. How many tough games did Alabama play back to back this year? Or Clemson? What was Clemson's best regular season win...at an 8-4 A&M team? Squeaking by Camping World Bowl champ Syracuse at home? They didn't exactly play juggernauts either. You're holding ND to a standard you don't hold the other P5 teams to. I think there is a conflation of "independent" with "don't play nobody!" ND clearly doesn't have the athletes any of the other playoff teams do, but saying their schedule sucked doesn't hold water.

ND played a lot of good programs this year. Michigan, Stanford, Virginia Tech, Florida St, and USC. None of those schools were exactly elite this year and it turned out that Syracuse was actually the highest ranked team they defeated (based on ranking at the time). They scheduled good programs - they can't control exactly how good their quality opponents are going to be in any given year.

I do with that ND would join a conference and play in a conference title game, but as long as the economics of their situation allow them to be independent they will do so. Tennessee, or any other school, would do the same thing.
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Call it what you want but all I know is that since 2000, Notre Dame is 0-6 in BCS bowls and the college football playoffs.
 
#83
#83
Brave Volunteer said:
Call it what you want but all I know is that since 2000, Notre Dame is 0-6 in BCS bowls and the college football playoffs.
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Of what bearing is that on this year's team? I don't really see how you could deny ND a spot in the CFP because they got blown out in the BCSNCG 7 years ago and haven't played well in other big bowl games over the years.

Say we had a big year in 2020. That's like saying Tennessee should be denied a spot in the CFP because we've been so bad for over a decade, and even though we did win a title in 1998 we also got convincingly defeated in our last Orange and Fiesta Bowl appearances.
 
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#84
#84
05_never_again said:
Of what bearing is that on this year's team? I don't really see how you could deny ND a spot in the CFP because they got blown out in the BCSNCG 7 years ago and haven't played well in other big bowl games over the years.

Say we had a big year in 2020. That's like saying Tennessee should be denied a spot in the CFP because we've been so bad for over a decade, and even though we did win a title in 1998 we also got convincingly defeated in our last Orange and Fiesta Bowl appearances.
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Previous history shouldn't factor. If you look at records and rankings they should have gotten in. If you look at what you think are the 4 best teams they don't. It wasn't a shock that ND got run off the field.

From a $ standpoint they got what they wanted out of ND. A big draw.
 
#85
#85
BeecherVol said:
From a $ standpoint they got what they wanted out of ND. A big draw.
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This really surprised me - ratings for the first semifinal game this year were actually way down over last year. I found that really surprising given ND was playing.

I'd expect ratings for the Final to be not great at all relatively speaking. People are getting Alabama/Clemson fatigue, and that matchup has limited appeal to people outside the Southeast.

It is amazing how Southeast-centric the game is. The SEC dominates a lot of the conversation, and a lot of the the non-SEC teams who have done well in recent years (Clemson, FSU, Oklahoma) are also southern teams. It's where the majority of the athletes are and where the game is most popular, so it makes sense. The only non-Southeast team who is consistently in the mix for titles in Ohio St.
 
#86
#86
05_never_again said:
This really surprised me - ratings for the first semifinal game this year were actually way down over last year. I found that really surprising given ND was playing.

I'd expect ratings for the Final to be not great at all relatively speaking. People are getting Alabama/Clemson fatigue, and that matchup has limited appeal to people outside the Southeast.

It is amazing how Southeast-centric the game is. The SEC dominates a lot of the conversation, and a lot of the the non-SEC teams who have done well in recent years (Clemson, FSU, Oklahoma) are also southern teams. It's where the majority of the athletes are and where the game is most popular, so it makes sense. The only non-Southeast team who is consistently in the mix for titles in Ohio St.
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I think most people that really follow college football knew where ND stacked up against the elite teams. Regardless of their record. Clemson could have hung 50 on them had they took the notion. No different than Bama. OU beats them by 2 or 3 scores without a defense.

They need OSU/ND/Michigan/PSU/USC types for balance. A few of then have stepped up and made the game but are not good enough to win once they get there. Mainly because they are beating lesser talent to make the record required.
 
#87
#87
BeecherVol said:
They need OSU/ND/Michigan/PSU/USC types for balance. A few of then have stepped up and made the game but are not good enough to win once they get there. Mainly because they are beating lesser talent to make the record required.
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I wouldn't say ND beat lesser talent this year. Alabama and especially Clemson did not play gauntlet schedules this year either. Clemson's toughest conference game this year was against Syracuse, who just won the Camping World Bowl, and they almost lost.

Even in 2012, when ND was run off the field by Alabama, they beat a Stanford team who won the Pac-12/Rose Bowl and an Oklahoma team who went 10-3 and was a Big 12 co-champ. They also played and beat Michigan, Michigan St, Miami, and USC, all big name programs but who had mediocre seasons that year. Say what you want to about ND, and there's plenty of annoyances to pick from, but you can't really say they don't schedule/play anybody. They are an Independent, but that doesn't mean they play a non-P5 schedule.
 
#88
#88
You may like Clay Travis, you may hate him... Regardless, He just tweeted that the SEC Title game had almost a million more viewers than than Clemson vs Notre Dame semifinal... Wow
 
#89
#89
05_never_again said:
I wouldn't say ND beat lesser talent this year. Alabama and especially Clemson did not play gauntlet schedules this year either. Clemson's toughest conference game this year was against Syracuse, who just won the Camping World Bowl, and they almost lost.

Even in 2012, when ND was run off the field by Alabama, they beat a Stanford team who won the Pac-12/Rose Bowl and an Oklahoma team who went 10-3 and was a Big 12 co-champ. They also played and beat Michigan, Michigan St, Miami, and USC, all big name programs but who had mediocre seasons that year. Say what you want to about ND, and there's plenty of annoyances to pick from, but you can't really say they don't schedule/play anybody. They are an Independent, but that doesn't mean they play a non-P5 schedule.
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The difference lies with Clemson and Bama just being a lot better than than their schedule to. The eye test is plenty good enough now given the parity lies with just a handful of teams. ND loses 2 or more playing the same schedule Bama did this year.

The gap between Bama/Clemson (and even UGA to a lesser degree) and the rest is not getting closer. Saturday nite showed as much.
 
#90
#90
BeecherVol said:
The difference lies with Clemson and Bama just being a lot better than than their schedule to. The eye test is plenty good enough now given the parity lies with just a handful of teams. ND loses 2 or more playing the same schedule Bama did this year.

The gap between Bama/Clemson (and even UGA to a lesser degree) and the rest is not getting closer. Saturday nite showed as much.
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Quality post as usual.

Tua isn't going anywhere for at least one more season, and Lawrence will be around for at least two more.
 
#92
#92
BeecherVol said:
The difference lies with Clemson and Bama just being a lot better than than their schedule to. The eye test is plenty good enough now given the parity lies with just a handful of teams. ND loses 2 or more playing the same schedule Bama did this year.

The gap between Bama/Clemson (and even UGA to a lesser degree) and the rest is not getting closer. Saturday nite showed as much.
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ND could have gone undefeated with Clemson's schedule. Figures because ND is a quasi-ACC member in football anyway. Clemson kind of under the radar had a very pedestrian schedule this year in conference; everybody knows the ACC is weak, but you didn't really hear much discussion about how that also means Clemson's schedule was relatively weak. The best argument for the "ND shouldn't be in the CFP" crowd is that they didn't play a conference title game. If ND were fully in the ACC, they either would have played Clemson in the ACCCG and lost (if they were in the Coastal), or they wouldn't have won their division to begin with (if they were in the Atlantic). Either way, they wouldn't have made the CFP.

A&M would have given ND trouble, hell, they gave Clemson all kinds of trouble, but it would be winnable. If they had Bama's schedule, ND could have lost to LSU and likely would have lost to Georgia in the SECCG, so can't really disagree there.

Still, even if the gap between Alabama and everyone else is large, or the gap between Alabama/Clemson and everyone else is large, they still have to let 4 teams in. ND, going undefeated with the schedule they had, deserved to be in. It doesn't mean they would be some worthy adversary to Alabama or Clemson, but basically nobody else is.
 
#93
#93
05_never_again said:
ND could have gone undefeated with Clemson's schedule. Figures because ND is a quasi-ACC member in football anyway. Clemson kind of under the radar had a very pedestrian schedule this year in conference; everybody knows the ACC is weak, but you didn't really hear much discussion about how that also means Clemson's schedule was relatively weak. The best argument for the "ND shouldn't be in the CFP" crowd is that they didn't play a conference title game. If ND were fully in the ACC, they either would have played Clemson in the ACCCG and lost (if they were in the Coastal), or they wouldn't have won their division to begin with (if they were in the Atlantic). Either way, they wouldn't have made the CFP.

A&M would have given ND trouble, hell, they gave Clemson all kinds of trouble, but it would be winnable. If they had Bama's schedule, ND could have lost to LSU and likely would have lost to Georgia in the SECCG, so can't really disagree there.

Still, even if the gap between Alabama and everyone else is large, or the gap between Alabama/Clemson and everyone else is large, they still have to let 4 teams in. ND, going undefeated with the schedule they had, deserved to be in. It doesn't mean they would be some worthy adversary to Alabama or Clemson, but basically nobody else is.
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They could have yes. And then still lose to Clemson or Bama by 30 plus.

It's an argument of records and rankings (some are defining it as "deserves"), opposed to who the best teams actually are.

Can anyone with a straight face argue that ND is a better football team than UGA?

UGA wasn't going in ahead of ND with 2 Ls. But if they played tomorrow ND would lose (probably by 2 scores +) and anyone that watches much football knows it.
 
#94
#94
BeecherVol said:
They could have yes. And then still lose to Clemson or Bama by 30 plus.

It's an argument of records and rankings (some are defining it as "deserves"), opposed to who the best teams actually are.

Can anyone with a straight face argue that ND is a better football team than UGA?

UGA wasn't going in ahead of ND with 2 Ls. But if they played tomorrow ND would lose (probably by 2 scores +) and anyone that watches much football knows it.
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Correct, but the way I saw it was that Georgia already had a shot and blew it. Georgia also had a 20 point loss to a good but not great LSU team. Georgia probably gets in if their only loss was to Alabama in the SECCG, and instead of having a debate about ND we'd be having a debate about the worthlessness of conference title games. If ND had lost to anyone on their schedule, they wouldn't have even sniffed the CFP. Georgia, if their only loss was a nailbiter to Alabama, would be more deserving of having another potential shot at them if that was their only loss.

I'm still trying to figure out exactly how to categorize my CFP selection philosophy, but I'm guessing it is some kind of a blend of "best" and "most deserving." Certainly not a fan of having any automatic qualifiers, whether it be 4 or 8 teams.
 
#95
#95
05_never_again said:
Correct, but the way I saw it was that Georgia already had a shot and blew it. Georgia also had a 20 point loss to a good but not great LSU team. Georgia probably gets in if their only loss was to Alabama in the SECCG, and instead of having a debate about ND we'd be having a debate about the worthlessness of conference title games. If ND had lost to anyone on their schedule, they wouldn't have even sniffed the CFP. Georgia, if their only loss was a nailbiter to Alabama, would be more deserving of having another potential shot at them if that was their only loss.

I'm still trying to figure out exactly how to categorize my CFP selection philosophy, but I'm guessing it is some kind of a blend of "best" and "most deserving." Certainly not a fan of having any automatic qualifiers, whether it be 4 or 8 teams.
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That lends to the idea Im getting at. Either the vibe is that they wern't really that good, or they skated through a lesser schedule if that happens with OU making it in and OSU being right there as well with one L.

Im fine with saying ND should be there because they hadn't lost over UGA because they had 2 (even if one was a winnable game against the best team). But they can't sell me on the idea that the 4 best teams were in the playoff. That's just not the case.
 
#96
#96
BeecherVol said:
That lends to the idea Im getting at. Either the vibe is that they wern't really that good, or they skated through a lesser schedule if that happens with OU making it in and OSU being right there as well with one L.

Im fine with saying ND should be there because they hadn't lost over UGA because they had 2 (even if one was a winnable game against the best team). But they can't sell me on the idea that the 4 best teams were in the playoff. That's just not the case.
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But even you'd say that at some point "most deserving" has to be a component of it, right?

Say Georgia played Alabama twice this year. Once in the regular season and in the SECCG. Say they narrowly lost both times. Should they still have gotten in over ND? They'd still be better than ND even with 2 losses. That's a possibility that could absolutely happen at some point in the future. I totally agree that Georgia is better than ND, but they already had their shot, effectively.
 
#97
#97
05_never_again said:
But even you'd say that at some point "most deserving" has to be a component of it, right?

Say Georgia played Alabama twice this year. Once in the regular season and in the SECCG. Say they narrowly lost both times. Should they still have gotten in over ND? They'd still be better than ND even with 2 losses. That's a possibility that could absolutely happen at some point in the future. I totally agree that Georgia is better than ND, but they already had their shot, effectively.
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The 2 descriptions really overlap. If you are one of the best 4 teams you deserve the chance.
AU is in the playoff last year if they don't have to beat UGA again the week after they beat Bama. ND doesn't have that extra obstacle on their schedule.

Im not a big fan of attaching results from previous years to current teams but ND isn't doing itself any favors by getting run when given the chance. They didn't legitimize the decision for them to be in the playoff Saturday. They cemented the way many already felt. They were out of place. While not necessarily fair, at some point (until they prove otherwise) being undefeated doesn't mean a whole lot to me in that regard.
 
#98
#98
BeecherVol said:
The 2 descriptions really overlap. If you are one of the best 4 teams you deserve the chance.
AU is in the playoff last year if they don't have to beat UGA again the week after they beat Bama. ND doesn't have that extra obstacle on their schedule.

Im not a big fan of attaching results from previous years to current teams but ND isn't doing itself any favors by getting run when given the chance. They didn't legitimize the decision for them to be in the playoff Saturday. They cemented the way many already felt. They were out of place. While not necessarily fair, at some point (until they prove otherwise) being undefeated doesn't mean a whole lot to me in that regard.
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I agree with the first part - the biggest irritant with ND is their lack of a conference title game. The conference title game can also be an aid though as well, depending on your position. If the SEC had no conference title game, Alabama would just have gone into the playoff. Instead they had to play Georgia, and if Georgia won that game they likely would have gotten in. Georgia had no path to the playoff without the conference title game, the "extra" game. If you're the team with nothing to lose, you love that game.

ND plays a P5 schedule despite not being in a conference. If they go undefeated in any given year, it is really difficult to argue they shouldn't be in. Their SoS ebbs and flows just like conference strengths ebb and flow. It isn't like they are playing a UCF-type schedule. Clemson is clearly worlds better than ND, but if we're looking at just SoS, Clemson didn't exactly run a gauntlet.
 
#99
#99
To qualify for the playoffs teams need to be in a conference and play for the conference championship. ND needs to get over themselves. It's no longer 1988, they're not special because they are ND
 
#100
#100
Zues1 said:
To qualify for the playoffs teams need to be in a conference and play for the conference championship. ND needs to get over themselves. It's no longer 1988, they're not special because they are ND
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The economics of it still work, so in that sense they are "special." NBC doesn't continue to sign that deal with them as a favor to ND. It makes business sense for them to do so. No other network has a deal with a single school like that, except for perhaps Texas with ESPN (Longhorn Network).

The moment it becomes more lucrative for ND to join a conference than to stay independent, they will. And it'll happen one day.
 
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