Development is more important than top rated classes

#52
#52
sjt18 said:
I think skills improved under Pruitt but he didn't have the leadership or HC skills to pull things together.

Jones signed enough talent to end this walk through the valley. He was just not a very good coach... starting with thinking he was much smarter than he was. He thought he was going to reinvent football in the SEC with his offense and philosophy on S&C.
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In turn his S&C conditioning lead to injury and random helmets on the ground for players to step on
 
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#53
#53
We are missing a third component.

Putting players in the right scheme and being a good play caller!

Maybe that's a third and a fourth component?

Either way, my biggest gripe with Butch was absurd play calling! Pruitt, outdated schemes and playing the wrong QB!

Our recent coaching has been so unbelievably dumb. I think how they handle their personnel in the schemes they use has cost us more than the talent and player development.

Yeah we haven't gotten guys drafted as often as usual, but they're still getting picked up as UDFA's. Development hasn't been the worst.

They're flying under the radar cause our teams suck because we have Josh Dobbs QB draw 50 times in a row in the fourth quarter against Oklahoma, FLA, etc. Throw WR bubble screen after WR bubble screen that never worked once and trot a JG out there to fail time and time again with an ancient offense.
 
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#54
#54
I think you can make a good comparison between football and basketball. Rick Barnes didn’t have great recruiting classes during his first couple years here. He developed guys like bone, Williams, and schofield. Now, we are getting top 3 recruiting classes because Barnes has showed he can develop and get players to the NBA. Kentucky will never be a team hauling in top classes. Tennessee has shown that capability before. We just need to show players that we will develop you and send you to the NFL. The recruiting will be much much easier after that.
 
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#55
#55
GregAmsler said:
A) The point of mentioning Ekeler's comments was that the way we quantify "top tier" talent is flawed. His point is that, whether you sign the 30th ranked class or the 8th ranked class, the raw talent is roughly the same...unless you get a Trevor Lawrence or Leonard Fournette.....
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If that is his point, he is wrong. These two classes are NOT the same talent-wise. There will always be players that turn out to be better players than those that were rated higher, but not over a 25 player average in both classes.

What is true is that player development may be more important early on in a coach's tenure.

A team with more initial talent and no development may have the same results as a team with less talent but good player development.

Over time, though, players will stop going to a school that does not develop its talent and the results will reflect that as well.

On the flip side, these better players will start going to the school that is developing that talent and those results will improve. Some schools, and coaches, can attract this better than others so the ceiling is different at UK versus UT, for example.

You will not win at a high, consistent level without both, but it does start with good coaching to develop the talent you have.
 
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#56
#56
Berry4Heisman14 said:
I agree development is extremely important but in this conference even top tier development only will be 3rd in the east.
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True..to a certain extent...Kirby is at best a middling coach with oodles of talent. UGA can be tamed with the right staff, even of we have less talent.

And 9 win seasons will go a long way towards recruiting top tier talent.

I think the OP is correct that for long term program health, development is more import than recruiting rankings in the short term.
 
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#57
#57
BigOrangeFanatic said:
And there it is.

To get to where we as fans want to be...you got to have both.

We can consistently win 8 games developing 3 stars every year. Mark Stoops has proved you can do that even at UK.

But who wants that as the end goal?
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Not as an end goal but as a stepping stone..m
 
#58
#58
Berry4Heisman14 said:
Ok but what about when our rivals such as Alabama, Georgia, and Florida are getting top classes and top tier development?
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Pre-Saban Bama was kind of like UT in that they would recruit well (when they weren’t on probation) but their lack of player development made them inconsistent. They would have ok seasons here and there but never really at a championship level. It took Saban a single season to cut all the dead weight and develop a double digit win team in year 2 and competing for championships in year 3 and beyond. I think a lot of that early success was due to taking what he had and making it 10X better. Early on, Dabo also knew that he wasn’t going to compete with UF, UGA, UT etc in recruiting so he had to make the most of the talent they were getting. Consistency on staff, emphasis on player development and look where they are now. Franklin was maybe the most impressive coach in recent memory with what he did at Vandy, which will never compete with top tier programs in recruiting. He’s been a little disappointing at PSU but Ohio State has just been a monster in the BIG10 that nobody save Mark Dantonio at Mich St could occasionally compete with. Good post OP.
 
#59
#59
GregAmsler said:
Mike Ekeler made a comment shortly after being hired that there are only about 3-5 players in each class that are really special difference-makers. After that, there are a bunch of guys that can be good with the right development.

I think that's going to be the key to this staff's success...not whether they sign top rated classes...but how do they develop them? Tennessee will attract enough talent. Always has. But for the last decade-plus, Tennessee hasn't had coaches that adequately developed that talent.

Want proof if this? Kentucky had SIX players drafted into the NFL this last weekend. Have they ever had a higher rated class than Tennessee? Not to my recollection. Yet, they were a better team last year (really the last 3 years), they kicked Tennessee's ass last year, and they just put six guys in the league by developing them. The only thing stopping Kentukcy from being a real force in the East was QB play.

Stoops gets the most of his talent. Franklin did that at Vanderbilt, achieving two 9-win seasons without top 25 classes. You can look around the country and see evidence of the theory that development trumps rankings. Hell, Clemson began a dynasty with classes ranked 10-20, not top 5. NOW they're getting top 5 classes, but that's not how they got there (I also think rankings can be self-fulfilling sometimes...if a kid is offered by Bama or Clemson now, he's rated higher, so their classes are inevitably rated higher as a result).

This isn't to say that Tennessee shouldn't or won't attract top rated talent. It's to say that it's not the end-all, be-all. If Heupel & Co. can get the guys they feel they can work with and mold into their system, create a winning culture, and develop those guys, they'll be successful, regardless of where they fall in the recruiting rankings.
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You are spot on. Players like Eric Berry can play well under any coach. Most have to be coached to obtain their potential.
 
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#60
#60
McDad said:
In these discussions about talent, development. coaching, we like to debate which is the most important. We like to figure out which is the best. Some will say, "coaching makes the difference". Others, "it's the jimmys and joes, not the xs and os".
The truth is it ALL matters. It is ALL important. Talent isn't enough. Coaching up athletes with lower potential isn't enough. Scheme can overcome for a while but eventually others catch on to your trends. Competing, winning consistently, establishing a dynasty need every available metric they can get to be favorable.
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You come up with that all by yourself?
 
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#64
#64
Berry4Heisman14 said:
I agree development is extremely important but in this conference even top tier development only will be 3rd in the east.
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Gotta get the top rated guys and develop them. To get the top rated guys, you have to win at a high level. To win at a high level you have to have the top rated guys.

I honestly have no clue as to how TN can solve this dilemma.
 
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#65
#65
BigOrangeTrain said:
Gotta get the top rated guys and develop them. To get the top rated guys, you have to win at a high level. To win at a high level you have to have the top rated guys.

I honestly have no clue as to how TN can solve this dilemma.
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Same way Clemson went from trash to perennial competitor for the title. Develop what you have and can get and roll up momentum like a big snowball.
 
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#66
#66
BigOrangeTrain said:
Gotta get the top rated guys and develop them. To get the top rated guys, you have to win at a high level. To win at a high level you have to have the top rated guys.

I honestly have no clue as to how TN can solve this dilemma.
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We have to cheat. But not get caught or tell on ourselves and actually develop the talent.
 
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#69
#69
BigOrangeTrain said:
True but it’s like you said. How do you catch up to the teams you mentioned when they are just so far ahead?
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Gotta cheat better. We know UGA bama, Florida and all the top dogs are doing it. If Tennessee is offering you to come there, be mediocre for 3-4 years and Bama is offering you a corvette and the chance to win multiple championships it’s a obvious choice for anyone who isn’t a Tennessee fan. We have to cheat better
 
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#71
#71
GregAmsler said:
Mike Ekeler made a comment shortly after being hired that there are only about 3-5 players in each class that are really special difference-makers. After that, there are a bunch of guys that can be good with the right development.

I think that's going to be the key to this staff's success...not whether they sign top rated classes...but how do they develop them? Tennessee will attract enough talent. Always has. But for the last decade-plus, Tennessee hasn't had coaches that adequately developed that talent.

Want proof if this? Kentucky had SIX players drafted into the NFL this last weekend. Have they ever had a higher rated class than Tennessee? Not to my recollection. Yet, they were a better team last year (really the last 3 years), they kicked Tennessee's ass last year, and they just put six guys in the league by developing them. The only thing stopping Kentukcy from being a real force in the East was QB play.

Stoops gets the most of his talent. Franklin did that at Vanderbilt, achieving two 9-win seasons without top 25 classes. You can look around the country and see evidence of the theory that development trumps rankings. Hell, Clemson began a dynasty with classes ranked 10-20, not top 5. NOW they're getting top 5 classes, but that's not how they got there (I also think rankings can be self-fulfilling sometimes...if a kid is offered by Bama or Clemson now, he's rated higher, so their classes are inevitably rated higher as a result).

This isn't to say that Tennessee shouldn't or won't attract top rated talent. It's to say that it's not the end-all, be-all. If Heupel & Co. can get the guys they feel they can work with and mold into their system, create a winning culture, and develop those guys, they'll be successful, regardless of where they fall in the recruiting rankings.
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JG kicked our ass last year. Especially against KY
 
#72
#72
BigOrangeTrain said:
Gotta get the top rated guys and develop them. To get the top rated guys, you have to win at a high level. To win at a high level you have to have the top rated guys.

I honestly have no clue as to how TN can solve this dilemma.
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No. You don’t have to have the top rated guys. You have to have top talent. Those are not one and the same.

Some of y’all act like recruiting rankings are science.
 
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#73
#73
GregAmsler said:
Mike Ekeler made a comment shortly after being hired that there are only about 3-5 players in each class that are really special difference-makers. After that, there are a bunch of guys that can be good with the right development.

I think that's going to be the key to this staff's success...not whether they sign top rated classes...but how do they develop them? Tennessee will attract enough talent. Always has. But for the last decade-plus, Tennessee hasn't had coaches that adequately developed that talent.

Want proof if this? Kentucky had SIX players drafted into the NFL this last weekend. Have they ever had a higher rated class than Tennessee? Not to my recollection. Yet, they were a better team last year (really the last 3 years), they kicked Tennessee's ass last year, and they just put six guys in the league by developing them. The only thing stopping Kentukcy from being a real force in the East was QB play.

Stoops gets the most of his talent. Franklin did that at Vanderbilt, achieving two 9-win seasons without top 25 classes. You can look around the country and see evidence of the theory that development trumps rankings. Hell, Clemson began a dynasty with classes ranked 10-20, not top 5. NOW they're getting top 5 classes, but that's not how they got there (I also think rankings can be self-fulfilling sometimes...if a kid is offered by Bama or Clemson now, he's rated higher, so their classes are inevitably rated higher as a result).

This isn't to say that Tennessee shouldn't or won't attract top rated talent. It's to say that it's not the end-all, be-all. If Heupel & Co. can get the guys they feel they can work with and mold into their system, create a winning culture, and develop those guys, they'll be successful, regardless of where they fall in the recruiting rankings.
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Good sound post. You can also look at what Barnes did with our basketball team. He has put a decent number of guys into the NBA and that has allowed him to recruit at a level maybe even he has never recruited at.
 
#74
#74
Berry4Heisman14 said:
Ok but what about when our rivals such as Alabama, Georgia, and Florida are getting top classes and top tier development?
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Thats the key. Get top talent and develop/ get the best out of a player by putting them in position to do what they do best.
My NFL team loves to draft someone that needs development at there best position. Then they move them around calling it a "swiss army knife"type player. Ive used a swiss army knife. They have a lot of tools but each is lacking.
 
#75
#75
HiltonHeadVol said:
Ok, so lets use Georgia as a point. They had a school record 9 players drafted this 2021 cycle. However, this program cannot seem to get to the level production-wise of a consistent top 3 program nationally....at least thats what many or even most Ga. fans would say. So clearly Kirby is recruiting at a very, very high level. But are these Georgia players being "developed" and draft-able and not being coached? To me, it actually seems to be necessary to have all three......recruit at a reasonably high level, develop your players to be close to the best they can be in college, and coach them to be a part of a philosophy or team and win. That seems about right to me.
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Urban meyer said something like great players will get you 9 wins coaching another 2-3 and leadership 1. The bulldogs problem is coaching and always seeming to have a team that has a weak unit on the team that is often there down fall in big games.
Is it me or are they a vanilla scheme type team like Ohio State that just says my 22 are better then yours. Then they play in big games vs equal talent and those simple schemes dont works so well and if the other team does run a more advanced system its more then they can handle.
Dodo at clemson has it going 2. They were not as experienced this year and had many drafted the 2 years before and still made the playoffs. I dont think they will drop off much. Easy conference.
 
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