Derek Dooley vs Butch Jones recruiting classes

#1
Booker512

Booker512

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#1
I keep seeing where Dooley is considered a worse coach due to his lack of recruiting ability. Which, I’m not trying to say the guy was a good coach, we all know that’s just not true....but giving credit to Butch for being such an over the top recruiter is kind of in the same vein.

Here are their recruiting classes:

Dooley:
2010: 7th
2011: 14th
2012: 19th

Butch:
2013: 25th
2014: 7th
2015: 4th
2016: 14th

If you consider how many of the 2015 class have transferred or been dismissed....Butch and Dooley are about even. As hard as that is to believe. But even factoring that class in and averaging them for their first 3 seasons as a head coach, Butch’s recruiting classes rank 12th on average. Dooley’s rank 13th on average. Not much of a separation for Dooley to be torn down as a recruiter and Butch to be put on some sort of a pedestal for it.

And for everyone saying Butch took over a difficult situation....well, Dooley didn’t exactly walk into a gold mine as a head coach either. The way Kiffin handled himself and then the way he left and let the class fall apart...you could even make the argument Dooley took over and equally difficult situation as Butch did....with LESS headcoaching experience at the time. Dooley had been a HC for only 3 years at 1 school before taking the Tennessee job. When Butch got to Knoxville, he was in his 7th season as a HC at the 3rd program he had coached at.
 
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#2
#2
I could recruit at Tennessee. A trained monkey could. Butch gets way too much credit for recruiting. It’s Tennesee, not Tulane.
 
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#3
#3
Yeah anyone could recruit at TN.... they should save a little money and just hire a waitress from IHOP

Some of you guys are intelectually challenged
 
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#4
#4
As far as an outside view on the Dooley v Jones debate; I’d say Butch fielded a slightly better football product during the best of the Dobbs teams, but that slight improvement is negated by the constant hokiness and sophomoric buffoonery in words and deeds by Butch. I never recall Dooley looking/sounding like amateur hour. I guess the only thing close was the orange pants thing, but I actually thought that was a nice touch, paying homage to his Dad and embracing the UT orange.
 
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#5
#5
bUTch had it relatively easy. He had all of those legacy players. Creamer, bates, berry, Berry, Warrior, Kelly etc. etc. etc.

If you didn't show up drunk at the in- home visit, then those guys were going to sign at U.T.
anyway...
 
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#6
#6
Booker512 said:
I keep seeing where Dooley is considered a worse coach due to his lack of recruiting ability. Which, I’m not trying to say the guy was a good coach, we all know that’s just not true....but giving credit to Butch for being such an over the top recruiter is kind of in the same vein.

Here are their recruiting classes:

Dooley:
2010: 7th
2011: 14th
2012: 19th

Butch:
2013: 25th
2014: 7th
2015: 4th
2016: 14th

If you consider how many of the 2015 class have transferred or been dismissed....Butch and Dooley are about even. As hard as that is to believe. But even factoring that class in and averaging them for their first 3 seasons as a head coach, Butch’s recruiting classes rank 12th on average. Dooley’s rank 13th on average. Not much of a separation for Dooley to be torn down as a recruiter and Butch to be put on some sort of a pedestal for it.

And for everyone saying Butch took over a difficult situation....well, Dooley didn’t exactly walk into a gold mine as a head coach either. The way Kiffin handled himself and then the way he left and let the class fall apart...you could even make the argument Dooley took over and equally difficult situation as Butch did....with LESS headcoaching experience at the time. Dooley had been a HC for only 3 years at 1 school before taking the Tennessee job. When Butch got to Knoxville, he was in his 7th season as a HC at the 3rd program he had coached at.
Click to expand...


To Dooley's credit, he got DaRick Hunter & Justin Hunter in just a few weeks, after Kiffin left...
 
#7
#7
Just looking at a number doesn't even come close to telling the whole story.

Dooley's recruiting was **** and was almost designed specifically to maximize his Rivals ranking. He padded his classes with 4* recruits who didn't have a prayer of academic eligibility and had no aim whatsoever when it came to team building (see four 4* receivers and zero o-linemen of any kind in 2012).

And that 2013 class ranking can be pinned on Dooley. He literally gave up recruiting to the point where 2-star prospects were committing during the regular season. That was a scorched earth level of neglect and Butch actually did a pretty impressive job of salvaging that class.
 
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#8
#8
The fact that Butch couldn’t win a much weaker SEC East with better recruiting classes than Dooley is embarrassing.

Sure, Butch did good things off the field besides football but when you actually sit down and compare their coaching, it’s a lot closer than some of y’all want to admit.

We’re basically in the exact same situation we are in now when Butch first took over for Dooley.

Both don’t have a freaking clue how to coach in the SEC.
 
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#10
#10
Shower discipline and Looking for Rommel were bad. The Orange dog was Dooley's trash can.

I don't think either was that great. Dooley wanted to be Saban and rubbed a lot of people bad but he also didn't think he invented the perfect offense and refused to change. He got a lot of Tyler Bray, who I think had maturity issues and it would have been interesting to see if Nathan Peterman or Justin Worley would have done in a Dooley system. Dooley inherited a literally dumpster fire and every time it felt like we were on the verge of turning the corner something insane would happen (13 men on the field at LSU). Dooley was pretty honest in interviews and peopled hated him for it.

Butch came in with an odd system that had worked at a lower level. If you have a smart, fast, big armed quarterback it can work. However if you have slow quarterback his arm won't save him. Butch for whatever reason brought in Dormady to be mismatched in this system (star rating to boast a class?) And Butch is not going to change this system even if it means losing winnable games without letting a talented RB score from inside the 10 multiple times a year. The other problem with Butch's offensive system is that a disciplined defense eats it up as Scar and Vandy did last year even with Josh Dobbs. Butch is very guarded in interviews and won't say anything of substance; people hate it.
 
#11
#11
Jaws said:
I’d say Butch fielded a slightly better football product during the best of the Dobbs teams, but that slight improvement
Click to expand...

"Slightly"

I know we all want Butch gone, but let's not revise history to the point of making ourselves look like total morons.
 
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#12
#12
UTRavens said:
Just looking at a number doesn't even come close to telling the whole story.

Dooley's recruiting was **** and was almost designed specifically to maximize his Rivals ranking. He padded his classes with 4* recruits who didn't have a prayer of academic eligibility and had no aim whatsoever when it came to team building (see four 4* receivers and zero o-linemen of any kind in 2012).

And that 2013 class ranking can be pinned on Dooley. He literally gave up recruiting to the point where 2-star prospects were committing during the regular season. That was a scorched earth level of neglect and Butch actually did a pretty impressive job of salvaging that class.
Click to expand...

And Butch pads his rankings by signing huge classes with mostly 3* recruits....

And instead of academic ineligibility, they have locker room problems and get dismissed or transfer.

What’s the whole story again?
 
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#13
#13
VolFreakJosh said:
The fact that Butch couldn’t win a much weaker SEC East with better recruiting classes than Dooley is embarrassing.

Sure, Butch did good things off the field besides football but when you actually sit down and compare their coaching, it’s a lot closer than some of y’all want to admit.

We’re basically in the exact same situation we are in now when Butch first took over for Dooley.

Both don’t have a freaking clue how to coach in the SEC.
Click to expand...

South Carolina, Missouri and Vandy all peaked during Dooley's time here. Even more bad luck I see on him, the games that are generally give mes for UT were competitive and he lost a number of them.
 
#15
#15
Butch is a much better recruiter than Dooley, but there are plenty of coaches that can recruit well here. The idea that it's difficult to recruit to Tennessee has always been a myth (largely created in the Dooley years b/c Dooley couldn't recruit).

* UT has some of the best facilities in the nation
* Routinely sends players to the NFL (Dooley years aside)
* One of the best stadiums in college football
* Play in the SEC in big-time games
* Potentially compete for national titles
* Tennessee has growing talent base; close to Atlanta and North Carolina
* Nationally televised games nearly every week
* Huge potential following which can pay dividends in the future (see Peyton Manning's endorsements)
* Peyton Manning and many other famous NFL players
* Moderate climate; beautiful area

Seriously, it's not a difficult sell at all. If you're a college recruit and you see UT's facilities, you're going to be blown away by how many resources you'll have at your disposal. There are few universities in the nation that can compete with that (Bama, Oregon, a few others; that's it).

The only real disadvantage to recruiting at UT is that we don't have quite the natural talent in-state as places like Georgia and Florida, but you can still pull top 5 classes here if you work hard.
 
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#17
#17
MSCE09 said:
South Carolina, Missouri and Vandy all peaked during Dooley's time here. Even more bad luck I see on him, the games that are generally give mes for UT were competitive and he lost a number of them.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Mizzou still had Pinkle. Their winningest coach in history.

Vandy had John Franklin...we all see his coaching ability.

South Carolina had Steve Spurrier.

I mean....it wasn’t the Derek Mason, Odem, Muschamp show.

Butch has slightly better recruiting. Playing inferior coaches. And still can’t win the games Tennessee should be favored to win.
 
#18
#18
Booker512 said:
And Butch pads his rankings by signing huge classes with mostly 3* recruits....

And instead of academic ineligibility, they have locker room problems and get dismissed or transfer.

What’s the whole story again?
Click to expand...

None of that is really relevant to the argument.

For the huge classes, those ranking services cut off their team rankings at a certain number. Even so Tennessee's number of 4/5* commits in 2014 and 2015 is still consistent with their overall ranking.

Those other issues aren't relevant to the topic of bringing in recruiting classes - those players were real, they showed up to play and problems happened later down the line. It didn't mean Butch was incapable of bringing them in. Dooley was essentially getting "fake" commitments from several 4* prospects who were never going to qualify in the first place and were dropped by other schools they had initially committed to for that reason. It was an especially big problem in 2012.
 
#19
#19
UTRavens said:
None of that is really relevant to the argument.

For the huge classes, those ranking services cut off their team rankings at a certain number. Even so Tennessee's number of 4/5* commits in 2014 and 2015 is still consistent with their overall ranking.

Those other issues aren't relevant to the topic of bringing in recruiting classes - those players were real, they showed up to play and problems happened later down the line. It didn't mean Butch was incapable of bringing them in. Dooley was essentially getting "fake" commitments from several 4* prospects who were never going to qualify in the first place and were dropped by other schools they had initially committed to for that reason. It was an especially big problem in 2012.
Click to expand...

I'd agree that Dooley recruiting was awful but how else can you explain recruiting Dormady to play a spread read option QB other than he helped our stars during recruiting season and Butch hoped to recruit over him later?
 
#20
#20
Booker512 said:
I keep seeing where Dooley is considered a worse coach due to his lack of recruiting ability. Which, I’m not trying to say the guy was a good coach, we all know that’s just not true....but giving credit to Butch for being such an over the top recruiter is kind of in the same vein.

Here are their recruiting classes:

Dooley:
2010: 7th
2011: 14th
2012: 19th

Butch:
2013: 25th
2014: 7th
2015: 4th
2016: 14th

If you consider how many of the 2015 class have transferred or been dismissed....Butch and Dooley are about even. As hard as that is to believe. But even factoring that class in and averaging them for their first 3 seasons as a head coach, Butch’s recruiting classes rank 12th on average. Dooley’s rank 13th on average. Not much of a separation for Dooley to be torn down as a recruiter and Butch to be put on some sort of a pedestal for it.

And for everyone saying Butch took over a difficult situation....well, Dooley didn’t exactly walk into a gold mine as a head coach either. The way Kiffin handled himself and then the way he left and let the class fall apart...you could even make the argument Dooley took over and equally difficult situation as Butch did....with LESS headcoaching experience at the time. Dooley had been a HC for only 3 years at 1 school before taking the Tennessee job. When Butch got to Knoxville, he was in his 7th season as a HC at the 3rd program he had coached at.
Click to expand...

Wow isn't it crazy how they had identical #s except the oversigning legacy class?
 
#21
#21
Carl Pickens said:
Yeah anyone could recruit at TN.... they should save a little money and just hire a waitress from IHOP

Some of you guys are intelectually challenged
Click to expand...

Ooooh, I haven't heard this nonsense since good ole Phil was coach, and making excuses for how difficult it is to recruit for UT. :good!:
 
#22
#22
UTRavens said:
None of that is really relevant to the argument.

For the huge classes, those ranking services cut off their team rankings at a certain number. Even so Tennessee's number of 4/5* commits in 2014 and 2015 is still consistent with their overall ranking.

Those other issues aren't relevant to the topic of bringing in recruiting classes - those players were real, they showed up to play and problems happened later down the line. It didn't mean Butch was incapable of bringing them in. Dooley was essentially getting "fake" commitments from several 4* prospects who were never going to qualify in the first place and were dropped by other schools they had initially committed to for that reason. It was an especially big problem in 2012.
Click to expand...

UTRavens said:
Just looking at a number doesn't even come close to telling the whole story.

Dooley's recruiting was **** and was almost designed specifically to maximize his Rivals ranking. He padded his classes with 4* recruits who didn't have a prayer of academic eligibility.
Click to expand...

You’re the one that brought up issues that didn’t directly pertain to recruiting....that’s why I said Butch padded his stats with large numbers of 3* recruits. I looked at things that didn’t directly pertain to recruiting, like the fact his best recruits seem to like to go somewhere else to play football or just flat out are kicked out. Which hurts roster strength....and our roster is improved, but it’s not much above where It was When Butch took over at this point. That is a fact. We are barely over a 40% blue chip ratio right now. We were in the low-mid 30’s when Butch came here. So. 5 years of “great recruiting” doesn’t look so great right now. Especially with this class falling apart as we speak.

So Butch is an average Tennessee level recruiter and a horrible roster manager. How about that?

Recruiting doesn’t mean **** if the top of each recruiting class leaves or is dismissed every other season. I saw where almost 40+% of the 2015 recruiting class either was dismissed or transferred. That’s inexcusable.

The longer Butch stays. The closer he will look like Dooley 2.0...he already isn’t much better when you consider eastern division strength when Dooley was here vs when Butch has been here.
 
#23
#23
Im with ya Op this is one of the least talented teams that I can remember.

116th in total offense. 109 in turnover margin. 107th in scoring at 21.7 pts per game.

Allowing 372 yards a game while gaining 322. 111th in time of possession.

No Tds in 10 quarters which is 20.8% of an entire season. No tds in last 32 possessions.

Im sorry but there is no low hanging fruit here. Butch has left us scorched earth and bare cupboards.

The biggest lie the saleman sold you was the "rebuilt" program.

Tell fans of other teams how rebuilt the program is. That way they can get a good laugh without having to log onto our forums. Lol rebuilt. Call finebaum and ask him if Tennessee is rebuilt and turnkey.

Georgia is rebuilt. We are the worst team in the SEC right now, and one of the worst in the nation.

The stats dont lie. Others see it. Day-by-day this program is in a tailspin, its been a LONG time since you legitimately make the case that its a program "on the rise". Its been two years since Butchs teams played physical, hard and mistake free. That was prob the best thing butch ever did. Got them playing hard in 2014 and 2015.

Butch is dooley. Just give it a year or two to sink in. You'll see it in time.

Op's points are near impossible to argue with. It is what it is.
 
#24
#24
2010 was pretty much all Lane Kiffin's recruiting so Dooley doesn't get credit for that. And 2013 was Dooley's class for the most part so you should really give credit for that year to Dooley. One thing you will notice is that Dooley got worse ever year. Butch has at least been consistent in recruiting. No comparison imo
 
#25
#25
DiderotsGhost said:
Butch is a much better recruiter than Dooley, but there are plenty of coaches that can recruit well here. The idea that it's difficult to recruit to Tennessee has always been a myth (largely created in the Dooley years b/c Dooley couldn't recruit).
Click to expand...

No it wasn't. It was created in the Fulmer years when the likes of Jimmy Hyams and such would say that no one is going to work as hard as Fulmer to get in recruits because it is such a difficult job.
 
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