"Departures have Saban Seeking Answers"

#51

ShoalCreekVol

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#51
Here's an "out there prediction" for the post Saban era. Fans want Dabo. Dabo says, "I'm good here at Clemson, why would I jump into following Saban at Bama".. Pruitt happy at UT.. Kids have adjusted to East Tennessee schools and friends and gets that phone call from Mike Shula about what a 8-4 season or worse is like in Tuscaloosa.. Where too next? Look no further than the now head coach of the Cleveland Browns. Freddy Kitchens. He will have made the playoffs with the Browns by then and will backfill the Saban vaccum! I'll bump this thread if that happens (If I'm still alive by then).
I remember being at the '96 3rd Saturday game at Neyland when Freddie was QB. Bama fans calling Coach Fulmer "Otis from Mayberry" and UT fans saying Bama's QB was so fat his jersey number was 1-800-94-JENNY. Good times.

Especially good when Jay Graham broke the game winning TD run and ripped the hearts right out of the Gumps. Leonard Little was an absolute BEAST on that last defensive stand.
 
#55

ptcarter

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#55
I remember being at the '96 3rd Saturday game at Neyland when Freddie was QB. Bama fans calling Coach Fulmer "Otis from Mayberry" and UT fans saying Bama's QB was so fat his jersey number was 1-800-94-JENNY. Good times.

Especially good when Jay Graham broke the game winning TD run and ripped the hearts right out of the Gumps. Leonard Little was an absolute BEAST on that last defensive stand.
Ha... now THAT's funny..
I was at that game.. Epic. My kids need to experience a game like that.

I have a Tennessee buddy. His favorite joke was: "Why didn't Alabama have any turnovers last week?.... Because Freddy Kitchens ate them all !!"
 
#58

05_never_again

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#58
Next year, who would be the better choice as Nicky's OC...?

the Dools

or the Botch?
Between those two, I'd say Dooley. Dooley is probably the better offensive tactician - he at least knows who his best players are and tries to get them the ball.

Butch had a much better record as a HC at Tennessee than Dooley did, but as time has gone on you can make an argument he's actually a worse coach than Dooley. Butch was worse than Dooley at overall game planning and game management. Butch also left the program in worse shape than Dooley did. Despite the two 9-win seasons and going 3-0 in bowls, something that Dooley never sniffed, I think there's something to be said for that.
 
#59

LouderVol

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#59
Between those two, I'd say Dooley. Dooley is probably the better offensive tactician - he at least knows who his best players are and tries to get them the ball.

Butch had a much better record as a HC at Tennessee than Dooley did, but as time has gone on you can make an argument he's actually a worse coach than Dooley. Butch was worse than Dooley at overall game planning and game management. Butch also left the program in worse shape than Dooley did. Despite the two 9-win seasons and going 3-0 in bowls, something that Dooley never sniffed, I think there's something to be said for that.
lol no.

no OL one year.
no weight lifting, players just had to sign in
grade issues, with possibility of missing bowls

not defending Butch, he sucked, and deserved to be fired. but you are forgetting how bad Dooley was. 13 men on the field, playing an entire defensive possession with 10 men on the field.
 
#60

wmcovol

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#60
Jones did a good job rebuilding the program up to the point he realized the job was bigger than he was. I doubt Dooley would have ever won 9 games if we kept him here 10 yrs.
 
#62

DWright39

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#62
I know, right? Anybody who lived through the Cold War would never say "hey I wish we could go back to having the US & USSR at full nuclear power at the same time!!!".

I don't want assured mutual destruction, I want the good guys to win. Go Vols.
I’d love to beat the hell out of them while they are great. I didn’t really follow college football until my family moved back to TN when I started high school. This was in the mid 90s and I couldn’t understand why everyone made such a big deal about Alabama. Lol
 
#63

davethevol

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#63
lol no.

no OL one year.
no weight lifting, players just had to sign in
grade issues, with possibility of missing bowls

not defending Butch, he sucked, and deserved to be fired. but you are forgetting how bad Dooley was. 13 men on the field, playing an entire defensive possession with 10 men on the field.
The players weren’t lifting weights under Butch either. There was an article about it last year I think. There’s a reason they got knocked around by Appalachian State.
 
#65

05_never_again

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#65
lol no.

no OL one year.
no weight lifting, players just had to sign in
grade issues, with possibility of missing bowls

not defending Butch, he sucked, and deserved to be fired. but you are forgetting how bad Dooley was. 13 men on the field, playing an entire defensive possession with 10 men on the field.
It's pretty easy to argue that Butch was a much worse tactical coach that Butch because Butch actually recruited well, much better than Dooley, in 2015 and 2016. It culminated with the worst season in school history, worse than anything Dooley did. Also, if you want to talk S&C, remember Butch's team went one full calendar year without a full-time S&C coach or program. Butch was much closer to Dooley than you think, despite Butch's better record.

It is possible that with Butch's teams, Dooley might have done marginally better than Butch did in 2015 and 2016. Dooley had his 13 men on the field moment, 10 men on the field moment. Butch had his chart said kick the XP moment (the chart did not say that) and repeated blown leads. Butch also had should-have-been superstars on his teams he never got anywhere near the most out of. Dooley at least recognized he had offensive skill position talent - Bray, DaRick, Hunter, CP, etc. and fed them the ball all the time.

Butch had a better record than Dooley - by that purely objective measure, wins and losses, Butch was quite a bit better. However, when you consider other ancillary things (Butch produced the worst record in school history after a string of good recruiting classes, he left the program in worse shape than Dooley did, etc.), you can at least argue Butch was worse. Not saying he actually was, but you can definitely argue it.
 
#66

LouderVol

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#66
It's pretty easy to argue that Butch was a much worse tactical coach that Butch because Butch actually recruited well, much better than Dooley, in 2015 and 2016. It culminated with the worst season in school history, worse than anything Dooley did. Also, if you want to talk S&C, remember Butch's team went one full calendar year without a full-time S&C coach or program. Butch was much closer to Dooley than you think, despite Butch's better record.

It is possible that with Butch's teams, Dooley might have done marginally better than Butch did in 2015 and 2016. Dooley had his 13 men on the field moment, 10 men on the field moment. Butch had his chart said kick the XP moment (the chart did not say that) and repeated blown leads. Butch also had should-have-been superstars on his teams he never got anywhere near the most out of. Dooley at least recognized he had offensive skill position talent - Bray, DaRick, Hunter, CP, etc. and fed them the ball all the time.

Butch had a better record than Dooley - by that purely objective measure, wins and losses, Butch was quite a bit better. However, when you consider other ancillary things (Butch produced the worst record in school history after a string of good recruiting classes, he left the program in worse shape than Dooley did, etc.), you can at least argue Butch was worse. Not saying he actually was, but you can definitely argue it.
still not seeing how Butch left it worse than Dooley did? Dooley left Butch a mess with the grades. No such issue for Pruitt. that is at least one, fairly substantial, objective difference.

Dooley had a lot of flash, but no one behind them. Butch didn't do a whole lot to correct that but he had a few guys waiting at least.

Butch had record setting offenses as well.

Butch was great at Special teams. Dooley left us not even trying to field the ball on kicks.

Butch out recruited. that's part of the business when you talk about coaching so you can't toss it aside. Dooley had his own lame duck recruits as well.

again, Butch sucked, deserved to be fired, and I am glad he is gone. I just think people forget how bad Dooley was
 
#67

05_never_again

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#67
still not seeing how Butch left it worse than Dooley did? Dooley left Butch a mess with the grades. No such issue for Pruitt. that is at least one, fairly substantial, objective difference.

Dooley had a lot of flash, but no one behind them. Butch didn't do a whole lot to correct that but he had a few guys waiting at least.

Butch had record setting offenses as well.

Butch was great at Special teams. Dooley left us not even trying to field the ball on kicks.

Butch out recruited. that's part of the business when you talk about coaching so you can't toss it aside. Dooley had his own lame duck recruits as well.

again, Butch sucked, deserved to be fired, and I am glad he is gone. I just think people forget how bad Dooley was
I'm not forgetting how bad Dooley was at all. Objectively, Dooley was a worse coach. He had a much worse winning %. There's no question or debate about it.

However, you can easily make an argument Butch was a worse tactical coach. Dooley went 6-7, 5-7, 5-7 (credited with 4-7 since he was fired before Kentucky). I would say that those records reflected, more or less, the talent level of his teams. The 2012 team had an offense capable of winning 9 or so games, but the defense was among the worst in school history, so that balances out to 5-7. The other two teams were simply void of good talent at a variety of positions.

Butch's teams, however, did not reflect the talent level of his teams by and large. I suppose 2013 and 2014 did, but the 2015 and 2016 teams should have won 10/11 games, won the East, and played in the SECCG. Especially the 2016 team. The 2017 team had 7-win talent on it, in what should have been a rebuilding year from back-to-back SEC East titles. Also, Butch departed after the worst season in school history, and with an even worse offensive line than Dooley left Butch. IMO, in a couple very important ways, Butch actually left the program in worse condition than Dooley, although Dooley objectively had a worse record.
 
#68

ptcarter

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#68
lol no.

no OL one year.
no weight lifting, players just had to sign in
grade issues, with possibility of missing bowls

not defending Butch, he sucked, and deserved to be fired. but you are forgetting how bad Dooley was. 13 men on the field, playing an entire defensive possession with 10 men on the field.
I may have dyslexia, but something jumped out at me, and may be appropriate for last season.

You can't spell LOL without OL.
 
#69
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#69
I'm not forgetting how bad Dooley was at all. Objectively, Dooley was a worse coach. He had a much worse winning %. There's no question or debate about it.

However, you can easily make an argument Butch was a worse tactical coach. Dooley went 6-7, 5-7, 5-7 (credited with 4-7 since he was fired before Kentucky). I would say that those records reflected, more or less, the talent level of his teams. The 2012 team had an offense capable of winning 9 or so games, but the defense was among the worst in school history, so that balances out to 5-7. The other two teams were simply void of good talent at a variety of positions.

Butch's teams, however, did not reflect the talent level of his teams by and large. I suppose 2013 and 2014 did, but the 2015 and 2016 teams should have won 10/11 games, won the East, and played in the SECCG. Especially the 2016 team. The 2017 team had 7-win talent on it, in what should have been a rebuilding year from back-to-back SEC East titles. Also, Butch departed after the worst season in school history, and with an even worse offensive line than Dooley left Butch. IMO, in a couple very important ways, Butch actually left the program in worse condition than Dooley, although Dooley objectively had a worse record.
No one who watched Dooley let the clock run down against Missouri, with the ball, an explosive offense and a chance to win, can argue that he was the better tactical coach.
 
#70

05_never_again

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#70
No one who watched Dooley let the clock run down against Missouri, with the ball, an explosive offense and a chance to win, can argue that he was the better tactical coach.
Take Dooley's worst moments (13 men on the field against LSU, letting clock expire against Mizzou) against Butch's (blown lead against Oklahoma, blown lead against Florida, the routine under-use of someone like Alvin Kamara and routine inability to get the ball into the hands of his best players). I'll think you'll find that they were both bad tactical coaches, with perhaps Butch being marginally worse. Butch certainly had better talent, which perhaps made his tactical mistakes more noticeable as well.

My overall point is that Dooley went 16-21 (5-19) in 3 years at Tennessee (wasn't officially credited with the last win but including it here). That record, more or less, is a pretty good indicator of the actual talent level of his teams. He had a boneheaded by strong-armed QB, good/great WRs, an offensive line that could pass block, but not much else. His defenses, especially that last season, were under-talented and generally horrendous.

In his last 3 years at Tennessee, Butch went 22-16 (9-15). He wasn't officially credited with the last 2 losses but including them here. IMO that record is not indicative of the talent level he had during those years. They should have been much better than than during that 3 year period. He had a good QB tailor-made for his system, an RB tailor-made for his system (Kamara), good WRs, who while not perfect fits for his system were good players, a decent offensive line, and a host of good defensive players (Barnett, JRM, DKJr, Gaulden, Sutton). That's pretty pathetic that a team with those guys, plus other solid players I could have included, won just 37% of its conference games during that 3-year period. Of course many of the aforementioned guys were hurt for large parts of their careers here, but I'd say some of that is on the coaching staff too and their lack of an adequate S&C program.

2015 and 2016 both should been 9-11 win regular seasons, with 2017 being something like a 7-win rebuilding year after the loss of many of the aforementioned guys.
 
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#71

BeecherVol

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#71
still not seeing how Butch left it worse than Dooley did? Dooley left Butch a mess with the grades. No such issue for Pruitt. that is at least one, fairly substantial, objective difference.

Dooley had a lot of flash, but no one behind them. Butch didn't do a whole lot to correct that but he had a few guys waiting at least.

Butch had record setting offenses as well.

Butch was great at Special teams. Dooley left us not even trying to field the ball on kicks.

Butch out recruited. that's part of the business when you talk about coaching so you can't toss it aside. Dooley had his own lame duck recruits as well.

again, Butch sucked, deserved to be fired, and I am glad he is gone. I just think people forget how bad Dooley was
A lot of what you re describing is what Jones did while he was here, which doesn't equal what he left. His high notes we re far removed from what his departure. Recruiting included. Pruitt is not reaping the benefits of the good.
 
#72

LouderVol

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#72
Take Dooley's worst moments (13 men on the field against LSU, letting clock expire against Mizzou) against Butch's (blown lead against Oklahoma, blown lead against Florida, the routine under-use of someone like Alvin Kamara and routine inability to get the ball into the hands of his best players). I'll think you'll find that they were both bad tactical coaches, with perhaps Butch being marginally worse. Butch certainly had better talent, which perhaps made his tactical mistakes more noticeable as well.

My overall point is that Dooley went 16-21 (5-19) in 3 years at Tennessee (wasn't officially credited with the last win but including it here). That record, more or less, is a pretty good indicator of the actual talent level of his teams. He had a boneheaded by strong-armed QB, good/great WRs, an offensive line that could pass block, but not much else. His defenses, especially that last season, were under-talented and generally horrendous.

In his last 3 years at Tennessee, Butch went 22-16 (9-15). He wasn't officially credited with the last 2 losses but including them here. IMO that record is not indicative of the talent level he had during those years. They should have been much better than than during that 3 year period. He had a good QB tailor-made for his system, an RB tailor-made for his system (Kamara), good WRs, who while not perfect fits for his system were good players, a decent offensive line, and a host of good defensive players (Barnett, JRM, DKJr, Gaulden, Sutton). That's pretty pathetic that a team with those guys, plus other solid players I could have included, won just 37% of its conference games during that 3-year period. Of course many of the aforementioned guys were hurt for large parts of their careers here, but I'd say some of that is on the coaching staff too and their lack of an adequate S&C program.

2015 and 2016 both should been 9-11 win regular seasons, with 2017 being something like a 7-win rebuilding year after the loss of many of the aforementioned guys.
injuries played a huge role. which it could be argued is also Butch's fault. Hurd quitting lost us the UGA game, and the TAMU game was a fustercluck of injuries (and turnovers). that's two Ws right there.

butch had talent at the skill levels but not the OL. and this is an OL/DL league. again its a negative against Butch, but really you can't argue any of our guys would have started on Bama's team of the time. maybe Barnett, maybe Berry as a returner. In fact Kamara came to us because he couldn't start there.
 
#73

LouderVol

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#73
A lot of what you re describing is what Jones did while he was here, which doesn't equal what he left. His high notes we re far removed from what his departure. Recruiting included. Pruitt is not reaping the benefits of the good.
those are the same type arguments being made for Dooley.

Dooley left Butch an OL. that's it. and they were all on their last year.
 

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