Dan Mullen and Historical Context: A Vague and Hastily Made Study

#1

UTRavens

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 25, 2010
Messages
1,863
Likes
715
#1
Obviously there is quite a bit of debate about Mullen that, at its core, is pretty much about how his level of success at Mississippi State would translate to a traditional P5 power with more resources at its disposal. There are plenty of good points being made on both sides, so I'll try to add something new to the discussion and find the closest historical examples of this kind of hire.

For this "study", we'll make a few restrictions: hires must have been made in the last 25 years, and head coaches must have been at a lower/mid-level P5 program and then hired by a power program. To find the ones most similar to Mullen, who has a .605 winning percentage, I'll narrow it down to coaches who won 55-65% of their games with their previous program. After about an hour of College Football Referencing, here's what I found:

Mack Brown - Hired by Texas from UNC in 1997

UNC (1988-1997): 69-46-1 (.599)
Texas (1998-2013): 158-48 (.767)

An obvious and massive success of a hire. However, it is worth noting that Brown's UNC performance was deflated by two 1-10 seasons at the start of his tenure, and his win percentage was over 70% during the rest of his stay there.

James Franklin - Hired by Penn State from Vanderbilt in 2014

Vanderbilt (2011-2013): 24-15 (.615)
Penn State (2014-2017): 34-17 (.667)

There are certainly no complaints about the Franklin hire so far, though we'll see if he can take the next step and make a playoff appearance.

John Mackovic - Hired by Texas from Illinois in 1992

Illinois (1988-1991): 30-16-1 (.649)
Texas (1992-1997): 41-28-2 (.592)

Mackovic barely qualifies for this list both in time frame and win percentage, but this is going to be a very small list so we might as well include him. Mackovic had two .500 type seasons, then three top 25 seasons at Texas before a 4-7 season did him in.

Les Miles - Hired by LSU from Oklahoma State in 2005

Oklahoma State (2001-2004): 28-21 (.571)
LSU (2005-2016): 114-34 (.770)

Another massive success. Miles had three winning seasons in four years at Oklahoma State, but only peaked at 9-4 in 2003 and had no top 25 seasons.

Nick Saban - Hired by LSU from Michigan State in 2000

Michigan State (1995-1999): 34-24-1 (.585)
LSU (2000-2004): 48-16 (.750)

Yep, we know what happened here...and what has continued to happen...sigh. His Michigan State tenure is interesting though, as he hovered around .500 for four years before having a breakout 9-2 season in 1999.

Tommy Tuberville - Hired by Auburn from Ole Miss in 1999

Ole Miss (1995-1998): 25-20 (.556)
Auburn (1999-2008): 85-40 (.680)

Largely a success, and in the current era Tuberville's 2004 team would have had a chance to compete for the title. His Ole Miss teams were mostly middling with one 8-4 season in 1997.

Of course, this is not an exact science. Sometimes coaches who just missed had completely different fortunes at their big schools (Tyrone Willingham was .549 at Stanford, so he barely misses this list) and other coaches who were enormously successful at bigger programs sometimes failed anyway (see Rich Rodriguez, though technically not a P5).

But that's a pretty staggering list overall, and it's definitely food for thought. Sometimes there's just only so much that even a brilliant coach can do at a lesser program. Several national championship winning coaches came from good but not great backgrounds at weaker P5 programs, and other successful ones have come from this group as well. What we don't really have among the group listed above is a major failure, and only one (who technically isn't even in the last 25 years) can't be called a definite success. So if you're down on the increasingly strong rumors regarding Mullen's candidacy, this might be something to take comfort in.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 14 people
#2
#2
Same comparisons were made on Butch leaving Cincinnati.

Tennessee needs someone who wins no matter the school.

Not another coach who has excuses why they don't win.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 people
#3
#3
Same comparisons were made on Butch leaving Cincinnati.

Tennessee needs someone who wins no matter the school.

Not another coach who has excuses why they don't win.
These are power 5 comparisons. Butch was never a power 5 coach before coming to UT.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 13 people
#4
#4
Same comparisons were made on Butch leaving Cincinnati.

Tennessee needs someone who wins no matter the school.

Not another coach who has excuses why they don't win.

The irony is strong in that highlighted statement considering you are the number #1 fan of a guy with a 68-67 record as a college HC.

So using your own standards for a HC, we don't need a HC who can't win no matter what, or who makes excuses why he can't.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 people
#5
#5
An interesting one in reverse is Danny Ford at Clemson and later Arkansas. 96-29-4 at Clemson with a national title. 26-30-4 at Arkansas.

Also can throw Ed Orgeron in there now. 10-25 at Ole Miss. 14-5 at LSU. IMO Orgeron is a very mediocre coach, but with all the talent you get at LSU, it's tough not to win a minimum of 7-8 games per season.

The program you are at matters a lot. Miss State is a very tough place to succeed. Tennessee is a lot easier to recruit to and you're not going to have your successful staff coaches and Defensive Coordinators poached by bigger money programs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 people
#6
#6
An interesting one in reverse is Danny Ford at Clemson and later Arkansas. 96-29-4 at Clemson with a national title. 26-30-4 at Arkansas.

Also can throw Ed Orgeron in there now. 10-25 at Ole Miss. 14-5 at LSU. IMO Orgeron is a very mediocre coach, but with all the talent you get at LSU, it's tough not to win a minimum of 7-8 games per season.

The program you are at matters a lot. Miss State is a very tough place to succeed. Tennessee is a lot easier to recruit to and you're not going to have your successful staff coaches and Defensive Coordinators poached by bigger money programs.

brett beilema.
 
#7
#7
The irony is strong in that highlighted statement considering you are the number #1 fan of a guy with a 68-67 record as a college HC.

So using your own standards for a HC, we don't need a HC who can't win no matter what, or who makes excuses why he can't.

You do realize if you take Schiano's first 4 years out at Rutgers. When he was getting his recruits there to turn around a 20+ year average of 2 wins per season there.... once he got his recruits in place after those first 4 years

He then had a over .700 win percentage
Ranked multiple years in the top 10
And got Rutgers to 6 bowls and was 5-1 in them

You really don't understand football if you can't look past his record there when he was building that team for 4 years.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
#8
#8
brett beilema.

That's a good one, too, but I still suspect there's a Barry Alvarez affect of some sort going on at Wisconsin. Weird to me that they seem to be able to plug in literally anyone to that head coach position and they have 10 win seasons. I think Alvarez still has a heavy hand in a lot of things that would be considered "head coaching" duties at other schools and that's why they are so successful. It's also why guys like Bielema and Gary Andersen left, because they felt like they weren't in charge. And Paul Chryst was decisively mediocre at Pitt, as well, before going to Wisconsin.
 
#9
#9
brett beilema.

These are all lesser programs to greater ones though, in the grand scheme of things Wisconsin is more prestigious than Arkansas. There’s probably a better counter example out there.

Majors to UT could be one, but Pitt wasn’t a P5 program at the time.
 
#12
#12
Same comparisons were made on Butch leaving Cincinnati.

Tennessee needs someone who wins no matter the school.

Not another coach who has excuses why they don't win.

Butches problem is he would wipe his ass and get it on his finger and not know what to do with it. So it stank up everything he touched.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#13
#13
Obviously there is quite a bit of debate about Mullen that, at its core, is pretty much about how his level of success at Mississippi State would translate to a traditional P5 power with more resources at its disposal. There are plenty of good points being made on both sides, so I'll try to add something new to the discussion and find the closest historical examples of this kind of hire.

For this "study", we'll make a few restrictions: hires must have been made in the last 25 years, and head coaches must have been at a lower/mid-level P5 program and then hired by a power program. To find the ones most similar to Mullen, who has a .605 winning percentage, I'll narrow it down to coaches who won 55-65% of their games with their previous program. After about an hour of College Football Referencing, here's what I found:

Mack Brown - Hired by Texas from UNC in 1997

UNC (1988-1997): 69-46-1 (.599)
Texas (1998-2013): 158-48 (.767)

An obvious and massive success of a hire. However, it is worth noting that Brown's UNC performance was deflated by two 1-10 seasons at the start of his tenure, and his win percentage was over 70% during the rest of his stay there.

James Franklin - Hired by Penn State from Vanderbilt in 2014

Vanderbilt (2011-2013): 24-15 (.615)
Penn State (2014-2017): 34-17 (.667)

There are certainly no complaints about the Franklin hire so far, though we'll see if he can take the next step and make a playoff appearance.

John Mackovic - Hired by Texas from Illinois in 1992

Illinois (1988-1991): 30-16-1 (.649)
Texas (1992-1997): 41-28-2 (.592)

Mackovic barely qualifies for this list both in time frame and win percentage, but this is going to be a very small list so we might as well include him. Mackovic had two .500 type seasons, then three top 25 seasons at Texas before a 4-7 season did him in.

Les Miles - Hired by LSU from Oklahoma State in 2005

Oklahoma State (2001-2004): 28-21 (.571)
LSU (2005-2016): 114-34 (.770)

Another massive success. Miles had three winning seasons in four years at Oklahoma State, but only peaked at 9-4 in 2003 and had no top 25 seasons.

Nick Saban - Hired by LSU from Michigan State in 2000

Michigan State (1995-1999): 34-24-1 (.585)
LSU (2000-2004): 48-16 (.750)

Yep, we know what happened here...and what has continued to happen...sigh. His Michigan State tenure is interesting though, as he hovered around .500 for four years before having a breakout 9-2 season in 1999.

Tommy Tuberville - Hired by Auburn from Ole Miss in 1999

Ole Miss (1995-1998): 25-20 (.556)
Auburn (1999-2008): 85-40 (.680)

Largely a success, and in the current era Tuberville's 2004 team would have had a chance to compete for the title. His Ole Miss teams were mostly middling with one 8-4 season in 1997.

Of course, this is not an exact science. Sometimes coaches who just missed had completely different fortunes at their big schools (Tyrone Willingham was .549 at Stanford, so he barely misses this list) and other coaches who were enormously successful at bigger programs sometimes failed anyway (see Rich Rodriguez, though technically not a P5).

But that's a pretty staggering list overall, and it's definitely food for thought. Sometimes there's just only so much that even a brilliant coach can do at a lesser program. Several national championship winning coaches came from good but not great backgrounds at weaker P5 programs, and other successful ones have come from this group as well. What we don't really have among the group listed above is a major failure, and only one (who technically isn't even in the last 25 years) can't be called a definite success. So if you're down on the increasingly strong rumors regarding Mullen's candidacy, this might be something to take comfort in.

First response to this post is a bit ridiculous. First of all, THANK YOU for this informative post. Butch was from Cincinnati and the Big East and inherited the program he won with there. Butch did a decent job here when you look at what he started with. Sounds like he did as well here as some of those greats did at their former programs. Problem was, Butch's wheels fell off. He started dodging championship promises and stopped taking accountability for mistakes and lost a lot of respect from the fans first. Apparently the pressure got to him and he started losing his cool and lost respect from some of this team. THat's hearsay though. Regardless, his program was headed in the wrong direction vs these other guys.

MULLEN's program is headed in the right direction. 2 9-4 seasons and potentially his second 10-3 season this year and in a MUCH tougher conference than a lot of those guys played in. I think using this context as a model for Mullen is important. It would be an absolute solid and sound hire and our fans should be very very happy and grateful and supportive if he and his family decided to come here from a job and city his family seems to be happy with and a program that is tasting MORE SUCCESS THAN TENNESSEE HAS IN NEARLY A DECADE IN A MUCH MUCH WEAKER DIVISION.

I am sharing this post. Thank you again.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 people
#14
#14
Dan Mullen is not in the same league as any of those coaches, save for John Makovic.

32-38 SEC
2-15 vs. Top 25
0-9 vs. Bama

If we want a mediocre, eight win program, then we should hire him and get it over with already.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
#16
#16
If Dan Mullen was such a great hire, it would be obvious without Case Studies, and Mathematical Analyses. We would not need to be convinced, and his supporters would not feel the need to do so.

Also, he would have already been hired away from Mississippi State by a larger program.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 8 people
#17
#17
You do realize if you take Schiano's first 4 years out at Rutgers. When he was getting his recruits there to turn around a 20+ year average of 2 wins per season there.... once he got his recruits in place after those first 4 years

He then had a over .700 win percentage
Ranked multiple years in the top 10
And got Rutgers to 6 bowls and was 5-1 in them

You really don't understand football if you can't look past his record there when he was building that team for 4 years.

There you go, right on cue making excuses. Did you or did you not just say a good coach wins no matter what?

And stop just throwing out BS expecting anyone to take you seriously. Greg Schiano did NOT have a .700 winning % at Rutgers after those first 4 years (and a great coach should not need 5 years to have his first above .500 season). Schiano went 56-33 over the next 7 seasons, which is a 58.93 winning %.

Sorry, but if we end up with Schiano that means a whole bunch of guys higher on Currie's list, including Mullen, said no.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 people
#19
#19
Dan Mullen is not in the same league as any of those coaches, save for John Makovic.

32-38 SEC
2-15 vs. Top 25
0-9 vs. Bama

If we want a mediocre, eight win program, then we should hire him and get it over with already.

Pretty much it.

If it’s going to be Mullen, might as well just destroy our football program and get it over with.

If the fans are happy with 8-9 wins every year and meaningless bowl games, more power to them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 people
#20
#20
An interesting one in reverse is Danny Ford at Clemson and later Arkansas. 96-29-4 at Clemson with a national title. 26-30-4 at Arkansas.

Also can throw Ed Orgeron in there now. 10-25 at Ole Miss. 14-5 at LSU. IMO Orgeron is a very mediocre coach, but with all the talent you get at LSU, it's tough not to win a minimum of 7-8 games per season.

The program you are at matters a lot. Miss State is a very tough place to succeed. Tennessee is a lot easier to recruit to and you're not going to have your successful staff coaches and Defensive Coordinators poached by bigger money programs.

Great Point...one of the main reasons Les Miles should be choice #10. I really don't think he is a great coach. He was just able to out talent people at LSU which has one of the best recruiting advantages on the planet. A state that produces a ton of talent with only 1 Power 5 program.

Look at his offenses the last few years...terrible....and his record developing QB's...terrible too.
 
#21
#21
Pretty much it.

If it’s going to be Mullen, might as well just destroy our football program and get it over with.

If the fans are happy with 8-9 wins every year and meaningless bowl games, more power to them.

We won’t be, but we would be happy with an 8-9 win floor.

Only two programs have ever had a ten year consecutive ten win a season stretch- FSU and current Alabama. Being one win away from that every year would be an excellent baseline for a playoff team.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#22
#22
These are all lesser programs to greater ones though, in the grand scheme of things Wisconsin is more prestigious than Arkansas. There’s probably a better counter example out there.

Majors to UT could be one, but Pitt wasn’t a P5 program at the time.

i was responding to DG's point about interesting ones in reverse. thanks.
 
#24
#24
Substitute "Vanderbilt" for "Mississippi State" and see how the argument feels.

Vanderbilt has a lifetime higher overall win % than MSU.

Most coaches who get to 9 wins at Vandy are considered "great" (regardless of who they beat) -- see Franklin, James.

If Vandy's coach got them to the #1 national ranking, even for just a week, like Mullen did with MSU, they would be considered a genius.

MSU has been to 20 bowl games, total, in history -- 7 under Mullen.

The majority of MSU's 9+ win seasons (total of about 6 or so all time) have been under Mullen.

It would be very interesting to see how Mullen would do at UT. Or better still, UF -- after all, "Mullen" is pretty close to "mullet."

It is going to be a lot more interesting to watch what Jon Gruden does at UT.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 people
#25
#25
That's a good one, too, but I still suspect there's a Barry Alvarez affect of some sort going on at Wisconsin. Weird to me that they seem to be able to plug in literally anyone to that head coach position and they have 10 win seasons. I think Alvarez still has a heavy hand in a lot of things that would be considered "head coaching" duties at other schools and that's why they are so successful. It's also why guys like Bielema and Gary Andersen left, because they felt like they weren't in charge. And Paul Chryst was decisively mediocre at Pitt, as well, before going to Wisconsin.

agree
 

VN Store



Back
Top