College Hoops Around The Country [TN opponents, RPI, others]

Thunder Good-Oil

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For whatever reason, Tennessee just hasn't been a lucky program when it comes to basketball; there's really no other way to explain a flagship school in an extremely strong conference having one Elite Eight appearance in 24 NCAA Tournament trips. Tennessee has everything but tournament success going for it, however, so when the Vols finally break through and play basketball in April it won't be seen as an anomaly. I too am disappointed that Tennessee is flat come tournament time, but I truly believe that the recipe for becoming a perennial title contender involves consistent success and stability as a program until that run occurs and I don't think it's unreasonable to say that the program has never been as stable as it is right now.
TN was on the basketball map until Dickey killed it off.. Woodruff oversaw Mears growing the program and made a sound hire with Devoe. Woodruff built the largest on campus basketball arena in the country. Dickey destroyed TN basketball. Then a clown show of ADs followed Douglas Adair Dickey.
 

Vols8086

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It’s not useless at all considering that well over half of eligible teams don’t have to battle in a conference loaded with big budget opponents.
We aren't a small budget program at a disadvantage playing against schools with much larger budgets. We are one of the "haves" in this era of college athletics when it comes to funding and support. We are in a tougher conference but we also have the resources to compete in a tougher conference. So yes, its useless to compare us to small budget schools unless your sole goal is to be the tallest dwarf.

You continually want to act like our basketball program is at some major disadvantage when it comes to assessing higher expectations but then immediately follow it up by proclaiming what great shape the program is in and that it is a top 15-20 program currently.

So which one is it? Are we perpetually disadvantaged and damned that we should just just be happy to have a team? Or are we a top 15-20 program that has graduated to higher expectations than just making the NCAAT?
 

Thunder Good-Oil

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We aren't a small budget program at a disadvantage playing against schools with much larger budgets. We are one of the "haves" in this era of college athletics when it comes to funding and support. We are in a tougher conference but we also have the resources to compete in a tougher conference. So yes, its useless to compare us to small budget schools unless your sole goal is to be the tallest dwarf.

You continually want to act like our basketball program is at some major disadvantage when it comes to assessing higher expectations but then immediately follow it up by proclaiming what great shape the program is in and that it is a top 15-20 program currently.

So which one is it? Are we perpetually disadvantaged and damned that we should just just be happy to have a team? Or are we a top 15-20 program that has graduated to higher expectations than just making the NCAAT?
Barnes has TN basketball on the best track it has ever been on. The NCAAT is a terrible method of measuring program success. Single elimination and other than #1 seed opening round games, every opponent is a very good opponent. Luck. Officiating. Matchups. Injuries. Those are all huge factors in a very small sample of games played.
 
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Vols8086

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Barnes has TN basketball on the best track it has ever been on. The NCAAT is a terrible method of measuring program success. Single elimination and other than #1 seed opening round games, every opponent is a very good opponent. Luck. Officiating. Matchups. Injuries. Those are all huge factors in a very small sample of games played.
Again, like a politician you dance around the question and then make up your own stance and answer that.

I'm not arguing that Barnes has us on a great track. He does and has been very successful overall here. That isn't the conversation.

I am well aware there are plenty of reasons/excuses a team wins or loses a single game in any format. However, Barnes has a history in March for whatever reason. We are talking decades, not a single game. 7 years here and he has exactly one more NCAAT win than Jerry Green at UT.

You can't bemoan the program with a woe is me attitude when NCAAT success (or lack thereof) is mentioned and then immediately follow it up by proclaiming it is a top 15-20 program. A top 15-20 program has different goals and expectations than a top 150-200 program.

4 of our last 6 head coaches have made a S16 here (and I'm including Tyndall's single season in that list) so it isn't like there hasn't been some levels of success previously.

You may not like it, but NCAAT success is a pretty big measure used to evaluate coaches and their success/failure. Coaches are judged and fired due to a lack of postseason success in all sports. You agreeing or disagreeing that's fair or not is irrelevant to that fact. It just is what it is.

And before you try and spin it, no I don't think Barnes should be fired. To take it further I don't think he should even be feeling heat for his job at this stage. I do believe though that he has raised the floor of the program and the expectations that come with it. I also am not sure he is going to be able to take the program any higher than he has at this stage. Hence my glass ceiling comment earlier. When the next step in the program is to start making the S16 with regularity I have a hard time believing that happens with a 68 year old coach who has a history of struggling to do that over the last 15 or so years.
 

Thunder Good-Oil

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Again, like a politician you dance around the question and then make up your own stance and answer that.

I'm not arguing that Barnes has us on a great track. He does and has been very successful overall here. That isn't the conversation.

I am well aware there are plenty of reasons/excuses a team wins or loses a single game in any format. However, Barnes has a history in March for whatever reason. We are talking decades, not a single game. 7 years here and he has exactly one more NCAAT win than Jerry Green at UT.

You can't bemoan the program with a woe is me attitude when NCAAT success (or lack thereof) is mentioned and then immediately follow it up by proclaiming it is a top 15-20 program. A top 15-20 program has different goals and expectations than a top 150-200 program.

4 of our last 6 head coaches have made a S16 here (and I'm including Tyndall's single season in that list) so it isn't like there hasn't been some levels of success previously.

You may not like it, but NCAAT success is a pretty big measure used to evaluate coaches and their success/failure. Coaches are judged and fired due to a lack of postseason success in all sports. You agreeing or disagreeing that's fair or not is irrelevant to that fact. It just is what it is.

And before you try and spin it, no I don't think Barnes should be fired. To take it further I don't think he should even be feeling heat for his job at this stage. I do believe though that he has raised the floor of the program and the expectations that come with it. I also am not sure he is going to be able to take the program any higher than he has at this stage. Hence my glass ceiling comment earlier. When the next step in the program is to start making the S16 with regularity I have a hard time believing that happens with a 68 year old coach who has a history of struggling to do that over the last 15 or so years.
TN has won more than one game in the NCAAT 6x. Ever. 2000. 2007. 2008. 2010. 2014. 2019. Green 1x. Pearl 3x. Cuonzo 1x. Barnes 1x.

TN is 23-25 in 24 NCAAT appearances. Barnes is doing just fine. 17.4% of the NCAAT wins. 16.7% of the appearances. 16.7% of the appearances with more than one win. You have to get to the tournament before there’s ANY chance of advancing. Barnes has made the last 4. 4 of the last 5 if you want to include the cluster eff’d COVID shortened season.

It’s stupid to penalize Barnes for the garbage program that he took over. He did a great job getting TN back to the tournament in just his 3rd year after the dumpster fire that he started with.

Texas is irrelevant. They didn’t give a crap about basketball, but Barnes only missed the NCAAT once in 17 years while there. He’s taken 4 different teams to the NCAAT. In leagues with the bluest of blue bloods. Kansas. UNC. Duke. Kentucky. The Big East when they were the best conference in the country.

Barnes has built the TN program to it’s highest level ever. The NCAAT is a flawed measure of success. But making the field is the key and TN has been to the last 4.

Barnes is 68. But he’s pulling in top recruits like no coach ever has at TN. Mears was close.

TN has been heavily investing in basketball for over 50 years. There is no exclusive, recent commitment.
 

Vols8086

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TN has won more than one game in the NCAAT 6x. Ever. 2000. 2007. 2008. 2010. 2014. 2019. Green 1x. Pearl 3x. Cuonzo 1x. Barnes 1x.

TN is 23-25 in 24 NCAAT appearances. Barnes is doing just fine. 17.4% of the NCAAT wins. 16.7% of the appearances. 16.7% of the appearances with more than one win. You have to get to the tournament before there’s ANY chance of advancing. Barnes has made the last 4. 4 of the last 5 if you want to include the cluster eff’d COVID shortened season.

It’s stupid to penalize Barnes for the garbage program that he took over. He did a great job getting TN back to the tournament in just his 3rd year after the dumpster fire that he started with.

Texas is irrelevant. They didn’t give a crap about basketball, but Barnes only missed the NCAAT once in 17 years while there. He’s taken 4 different teams to the NCAAT. In leagues with the bluest of blue bloods. Kansas. UNC. Duke. Kentucky. The Big East when they were the best conference in the country.

Barnes has built the TN program to it’s highest level ever. The NCAAT is a flawed measure of success. But making the field is the key and TN has been to the last 4.

Barnes is 68. But he’s pulling in top recruits like no coach ever has at TN. Mears was close.

TN has been heavily investing in basketball for over 50 years. There is no exclusive, recent commitment.
So as long as UT makes the NCAAT that is considered a successful season? Is that your stance? What do you consider a successful season?
 

Thunder Good-Oil

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So as long as UT makes the NCAAT that is considered a successful season? Is that your stance? What do you consider a successful season?
Making the NCAAT is most certainly a successful season. So is being ranked. And being ranked #1. And winning the conference tournament. And winning the conference regular season championship. And beating highly ranked teams. The NCAAT is a really bad measure. But Barnes is 4-4 and only Devoe (5) and Pearl (8) have more NCAAT wins than Barnes and Devoe has a losing record in the NCAAT.

Barnes 4 losses include a one point loss to a 2018 Final Four team and 2 to Elite 8 teams. One was a P-5 conference champion. 3 of Barnes 4 losses were to teams that advanced to the Elite 8. 3 of 4 were to P-5 conference members. Loyola and Oregon State won their conference tournaments. Purdue was Big 10 regular season champion.
 

Vols8086

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Making the NCAAT is most certainly a successful season. So is being ranked. And being ranked #1. And winning the conference tournament. And winning the conference regular season championship. And beating highly ranked teams. The NCAAT is a really bad measure. But Barnes is 4-4 and only Devoe (5) and Pearl (8) have more NCAAT wins than Barnes and Devoe has a losing record in the NCAAT.

Barnes 4 losses include a one point loss to a 2018 Final Four team and 2 to Elite 8 teams. One was a P-5 conference champion. 3 of Barnes 4 losses were to teams that advanced to the Elite 8. 3 of 4 were to P-5 conference members. Loyola and Oregon State won their conference tournaments. Purdue was Big 10 regular season champion.
No need to take it any further. You don't think the NCAAT matters.

I disagree; especially for a top 15-20 program like you state UT is.
 

cncchris33

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So as long as UT makes the NCAAT that is considered a successful season? Is that your stance? What do you consider a successful season?
I think a lot of this is generational. Those who lived thru the late DeVoe, Houston, O’Neill, Buzz years, many would appreciate making the tournament as it gives you a 1 in 64 chance to go on a roll. The alternative to making the tournament every year sucks, I can tell you that from experience.

Once we established ourselves as a program that routinely makes the NCAAT, I can see how it could be easy to want more. Those among our fans who were indoctrinated into Tennessee basketball in the early-mid 2000s likely feel like we should make the tournament with relative ease most every season. It is easy to get spoiled in that regard. Similarly, I grew up being introduced to Tennessee football in the mid-late 80s, and felt like 9 and 10-win seasons were my birthright. I didn’t realize, at the time, just how special the next 15 years would be and I took them for granted.

Right now, our baseline for success, in my mind, is making the NCAAT. Beyond that, it becomes a crapshoot. It’s why I refuse to entirely discount any and all success in the regular season. Conference championships, SECT championships, wins over top-5 teams…those are all accomplishments worth celebrating and remembering. Postseason failure (whatever that means from person to person) doesn’t wholly spoil otherwise successful seasons for me. In the end, it always ends in disappointment unless you win it all.

That being said, would I like to see us making more noise in the NCAAT now that we are making it there with more regularity? Absolutely.
 

Thunder Good-Oil

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No need to take it any further. You don't think the NCAAT matters.

I disagree; especially for a top 15-20 program like you state UT is.
That is a stupid comment. I didn’t say that the NCAAT doesn’t matter. I said that it is a horrible measure of success for a 30+ game season. Only 16 of 350 eligible teams make it to the Sweet 16. Less than 5%. That puts Barnes at the 95th percentile once and the 91st percentile in 3 of the last 4 if you ONLY want to use the NCAAT to determine success.

Barnes has put TN solidly in the top 15-20. A historically top 35-40 program. There’s a small NCAAT sample size to go with it and I just pointed out how good those teams that eliminated TN were. Also you can’t ignore the randomness and luck of matchups and officiating and injuries.

Teams that have a deep NCAAT run had successful seasons. Not having a deep NCAAT run isn’t the opposite.

Only Pearl and Cuonzo have higher NCAAT winning percentages than Barnes. Barnes has the 3rd best of those 10 or 11 Tennessee coaches. It’s dumb to rehash the anti-Barnes Basilio narrative.
 

Vols8086

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That is a stupid comment. I didn’t say that the NCAAT doesn’t matter. I said that it is a horrible measure of success for a 30+ game season. Only 16 of 350 eligible teams make it to the Sweet 16. Less than 5%. That puts Barnes at the 95th percentile once and the 91st percentile in 3 of the last 4 if you ONLY want to use the NCAAT to determine success.

Barnes has put TN solidly in the top 15-20. A historically top 35-40 program. There’s a small NCAAT sample size to go with it and I just pointed out how good those teams that eliminated TN were. Also you can’t ignore the randomness and luck of matchups and officiating and injuries.

Teams that have a deep NCAAT run had successful seasons. Not having a deep NCAAT run isn’t the opposite.

Only Pearl and Cuonzo have higher NCAAT winning percentages than Barnes. Barnes has the 3rd best of those 10 or 11 Tennessee coaches. It’s dumb to rehash the anti-Barnes Basilio narrative.
When you say we are a top 15-20 program then you are putting us in the top 5% already. Why are you putting them in the top 5% as a program but then acting like NCAAT results in that similar range are outlandish? Be consistent with your take.

Teams that make the NCAAT are usually pretty good. Is this news to you? Is this some new phenomena worth pointing out in our tourney losses? Nobody is getting a cake walk to a title in March and that isn't any different for us so you're just making excuses. We aren't the only team that plays the game with officials either.

I'm not sure what Basilio or being anti-Barnes has anything to do with our conversation but I get it. You're so hell bent on defending Barnes that you spew whatever drivel you can and just go in circles even when that isn't the topic at hand.

At this stage the expectation should be make the NCAAT every single year. I think that is fair if you say we are a top 15-20 program. To take the next step this program needs to get to the 2nd weekend in March with some regularity. That seems like the next logical step up right? So what in the world are you even arguing?
 

Thunder Good-Oil

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When you say we are a top 15-20 program then you are putting us in the top 5% already. Why are you putting them in the top 5% as a program but then acting like NCAAT results in that similar range are outlandish? Be consistent with your take.

Teams that make the NCAAT are usually pretty good. Is this news to you? Is this some new phenomena worth pointing out in our tourney losses? Nobody is getting a cake walk to a title in March and that isn't any different for us so you're just making excuses. We aren't the only team that plays the game with officials either.

I'm not sure what Basilio or being anti-Barnes has anything to do with our conversation but I get it. You're so hell bent on defending Barnes that you spew whatever drivel you can and just go in circles even when that isn't the topic at hand.

At this stage the expectation should be make the NCAAT every single year. I think that is fair if you say we are a top 15-20 program. To take the next step this program needs to get to the 2nd weekend in March with some regularity. That seems like the next logical step up right? So what in the world are you even arguing?
You’re spewing the drivel. I’m bringing fact after fact after fact. Sorry, not sorry that you can’t interpret them. The expectation is to make the NCAAT EVERY year? That is delusional. Even Kentucky can’t pull that off.

The next step is to continue to participate and continue winning at least half of the games. The runs, other than for about 4 or 5 blue bloods, are random. The odds of being one of the very few programs that has one increase dramatically by being included year after year.

Pearl went 6x in a row and concurrently wrecked the program. He also was one-and-done in two of his last three. Devoe went 5x in a row and missed the next 5 tournaments. Cuonzo went once in 3 years and had a great deal of luck with a team that barely got into the tournament. Green went 4 straight years, but only won 3x and had 2x one-and-dones in those 4 years. Barnes is 4-4 with a single one-and-done despite facing Elite Eight bound teams 3x and one of them also a Final Four team.

Unless you are a Duke or a Kansas or a Kentucky or a Villanova or a Gonzaga, wins in the NCAAT are going to be very random. Every year half of the field leaves with a losing record. 75% of the field leaves without a winning record in that year’s tournament.

Barnes has 4 NCAAT wins in the last 4 tournaments. The list of coaches with more is a short one. It is dumb to harp on the Basilio narrative that Barnes is flunking out in March. He just won the first SECT in TN’s last 42 attempts.
 

Vols8086

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You’re spewing the drivel. I’m bringing fact after fact after fact. Sorry, not sorry that you can’t interpret them. The expectation is to make the NCAAT EVERY year? That is delusional. Even Kentucky can’t pull that off.

The next step is to continue to participate and continue winning at least half of the games. The runs, other than for about 4 or 5 blue bloods, are random. The odds of being one of the very few programs that has one increase dramatically by being included year after year.

Pearl went 6x in a row and concurrently wrecked the program. He also was one-and-done in two of his last three. Devoe went 5x in a row and missed the next 5 tournaments. Cuonzo went once in 3 years and had a great deal of luck with a team that barely got into the tournament. Green went 4 straight years, but only won 3x and had 2x one-and-dones in those 4 years. Barnes is 4-4 with a single one-and-done despite facing Elite Eight bound teams 3x and one of them also a Final Four team.

Unless you are a Duke or a Kansas or a Kentucky or a Villanova or a Gonzaga, wins in the NCAAT are going to be very random. Every year half of the field leaves with a losing record. 75% of the field leaves without a winning record in that year’s tournament.

Barnes has 4 NCAAT wins in the last 4 tournaments. The list of coaches with more is a short one. It is dumb to harp on the Basilio narrative that Barnes is flunking out in March. He just won the first SECT in TN’s last 42 attempts.
So a top 15-20 program (your words by the way) expecting to make the NCAAT every year is "delusional" (also your words)? You have got some awfully low standards if that is the case.

There isn't anything left to say if you believe that. You are essentially just happy to have a team and handing out participation ribbons. I'm not wired like that and can't understand anybody that is.
 

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AurantiacoFan

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All-Time NCAA Tournament Record for Current SEC Schools (sorted by Wins)
  1. Kentucky (131-54, 17 Final Fours, 8 National Championship)
  2. Arkansas (48-34, 6 Final Fours, 1 National Championship)
  3. Florida (48-21, 5 Final Fours, 2 National Championship)
  4. LSU (27-27, 4 Final Fours)
  5. Alabama (23-23)
  6. Tennessee (23-25)
  7. Missouri (22-28)
  8. Auburn (18-11, 1 Final Four)
  9. Texas A&M (13-15)
  10. Mississippi State (11-11, 1 Final Four)
  11. Vanderbilt (10-16)
  12. South Carolina (8-10, 1 Final Four)
  13. Georgia (7-12, 1 Final Four)
  14. Mississippi (5-9)

Kentucky, Florida and Arkansas have solid winning records in the NCAA Tournament. Auburn too.

The rest are .500 or below.

I thought Vanderbilt would be higher on this list. I also thought Missouri would be higher. I would think Georgia should be higher on this list given the talent that comes out of their state.
 
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Thunder Good-Oil

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So a top 15-20 program (your words by the way) expecting to make the NCAAT every year is "delusional" (also your words)? You have got some awfully low standards if that is the case.

There isn't anything left to say if you believe that. You are essentially just happy to have a team and handing out participation ribbons. I'm not wired like that and can't understand anybody that is.
Yes. When you include “expect” and “every”, you are delusional.

You can’t bring facts. You can only cite some made up babble about participation ribbons.
 

Thunder Good-Oil

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A top 15-20 program is different than a top 15-20 ranked team EVERY year. I’d reckon that that’s a difficult concept for some of the more ignorant to understand. Rosters are now routinely turning over by 50% a year. You can EXPECT that there will be a lot of minutes leaving whenever there has been a highly successful season. TN isn’t a program that can sit back and choose the replacements. The staff has to work very hard to bring in top replacement players which is why this program is currently in the top 15-20. Historically they are now closer to 30 than 40. You can’t erase 3 NCAAT wins in 22 years.
 

cardvolfan

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They call it “March Madness” for good reason. Absolutely the most unpredictable major sporting event ever. The teams with the most talent win it all quite infrequently. Most people are just incapable of understanding that the ultimate success is only enjoyed by one team each year. In some fashion, every other team experiences disappointment, except for one.
 

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