Collective Bargaining in CFB

[adam.vol]

Commerce clause says otherwise.

It also says “you should read me.”

Art. 1, Sec. 8, Cl. 3

Please help me read. Where in that does it say that congress has the authority to force collective bargaining?

 

[adam.vol]

College degrees are rarely a necessity, either.
That's why trade schools are making a comeback.

Not only are they not a necessity but in most cases are an inferior form of experience.

 

[LWSVOL]

Should it happen? Will it happen? If so, how many years until it happens?

I don't believe it will happen in my lifetime.. $75 to $100 million dollar rosters on the way..

 

[Delmar]

So you really think the NCAA and the universities aren’t making billions now. Come on. You do see the comments. All that oil money in Texas, that Nike money at Oregon, Wal Mart money in Ark. That ain’t the schools paying players. It’s donor money, fan’s money, and you and umpteen other fans think the new Wild West of highest bidder should win, is okay. I hate it.

I don’t think you’ve paid attention to past posts from me. I don’t like the current mess with no guidelines and have said that from the start. Just pointing out to the other poster that the old days are gone and aren’t coming back.

And I don’t care if it’s the university or fans paying the players. I do think the players deserve to be paid for their contributions to to the money being made by the schools. But I’m just not going to support a semipro team with no affiliation to the university other than leasing the Volunteer name and stadium. If I want to root for a semipro team, I’ll buy a Titans jersey.

 

[kcvols1]

Please help me read. Where in that does it say that congress has the authority to force collective bargaining?

I can’t fix willful ignorance.

Read it again with a broader lens.

It’s pretty settled constitutional law if you have the patience to read and understand.

The legal support is so voluminous as to prevent its full enumeration herein.

I’ll note your position that Reggie White was a traitor though!

1990s: Growth of the Union

NFL Players finally won true free agency after more than twenty years with the White v. NFL settlement. The NFLPA was reconstituted as a union and the first modern Collective Bargaining Agreement was enacted. In 1994, the NFLPA Board of Player Representatives voted to create NFL Players, Inc. as...

nflpa.com

 

[adam.vol]

I can’t fix willful ignorance.

Read it again with a broader lens.

It’s pretty settled constitutional law if you have the patience to read and understand.

The legal support is so voluminous as to prevent its full enumeration herein.

I’ll note your position that Reggie White was a traitor though!

1990s: Growth of the Union

NFL Players finally won true free agency after more than twenty years with the White v. NFL settlement. The NFLPA was reconstituted as a union and the first modern Collective Bargaining Agreement was enacted. In 1994, the NFLPA Board of Player Representatives voted to create NFL Players, Inc. as...

nflpa.com

Willful ignorance is confusing a person’s right to determine their own participation with the trade of goods. The 13th amendment is very clear on that. Humans are not goods.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

I don’t think you’ve paid attention to past posts from me. I don’t like the current mess with no guidelines and have said that from the start. Just pointing out to the other poster that the old days are gone and aren’t coming back.

And I don’t care if it’s the university or fans paying the players. I do think the players deserve to be paid for their contributions to to the money being made by the schools. But I’m just not going to support a semipro team with no affiliation to the university other than leasing the Volunteer name and stadium. If I want to root for a semipro team, I’ll buy a Titans jersey.

Serious question.

How much "affiliation" do you think the UT Athletic Dept and players ACTUALLY have with the University?

From Danny White down, how "connected" to the University do you really think of dept is to the school beyond where it sits geographically and the colors?

How "normal" do you think the life of the real recruits is these days compared to 99% of the students at UT? Do you REALLY believe they're just "guys who are students who like to play football but walk around campus just like all the other students."

I'm questioning what you want to mean when you say "affiliated."

 

[volfan102455]

Serious question.

How much "affiliation" do you think the UT Athletic Dept and players ACTUALLY have with the University?

From Danny White down, how "connected" to the University do you really think of dept is to the school beyond where it sits geographically and the colors?

How "normal" do you think the life of the real recruits is these days compared to 99% of the students at UT? Do you REALLY believe they're just "guys who are students who like to play football but walk around campus just like all the other students."

I'm questioning what you want to mean when you say "affiliated."

That is not the point. The point is that the AD, players, et al are using the longstanding tradition of the University and the brand to anchor upon. Take that connection away and they become the Knoxville Minor League NFL team, and the interest in spending Saturdays in Knoxville will dry up - may as well anchor on the Tennessee Titans as Tennessee's football team or shift support to a more local school where the pride is still there.

The players need for these University brands to exist to draw the audience that brings in the dollars to support there being a program and any NIL they may obtain. That brand, the third Saturday in October, the other rivalries is what sells the tickets and puts butts in the seats, has folks buying the jersey in the "brand colors" with their names on it.

The NFL needs for the college game to exist and be successful. They don't want to fund a minor league and why would they?

ESPN and all the networks need for the college game to exist and be successful.

Honestly, the players are cutting off the hands that feed them. They are not hurting the schools - what the schools make from the sports is just a drop in the bucket. The schools as entities will survive even if the sports programs die. But eventually the players may have nowhere to play - or at a minimum the number of places to play will be limited thus those that are truly using their ability to gain an education will no longer be able to do so.

The women will feel the impact first and when that happens, I do expect the discrimination lawsuits to follow.

 

[volfan102455]

You run the AD as a business and have a business that has to pay its football team millions of dollars a year - you cut the sports that don't make a profit. No baseball, no softball, no hockey, no soccer, no women's basketball, etc. etc.

We eventually have 1 sport played in the fall and that is it.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

That is not the point. The point is that the AD, players, et al are using the longstanding tradition of the University and the brand to anchor upon. Take that connection away and they become the Knoxville Minor League NFL team, and the interest in spending Saturdays in Knoxville will dry up - may as well anchor on the Tennessee Titans as Tennessee's football team or shift support to a more local school where the pride is still there.

The players need for these University brands to exist to draw the audience that brings in the dollars to support there being a program and any NIL they may obtain. That brand, the third Saturday in October, the other rivalries is what sells the tickets and puts butts in the seats, has folks buying the jersey in the "brand colors" with their names on it.

The NFL needs for the college game to exist and be successful.

ESPN and all the networks need for the college game to exist and be successful.

Honestly, the players are cutting off the hands that feed them. They are not hurting the schools - what the schools make from the sports is just a drop in the bucket. The schools as entities will survive even if the sports programs die. But eventually the players may have nowhere to play - or at a minimum the number of places to play will be limited thus those that are truly using their ability to gain an education will no longer be able to do so.

The women will feel the impact first and when that happens, I do expect the discrimination lawsuits to follow.

Leasing the stadium and arena for bball and Anderson and the logo is given.

That's the connection to the school, isn't it?

Again, do you SERIOUSLY think these athletes come to go school ("We didn't come to play school") or to play sports?

They're not just "guys who play sports and go to school" but guys who the school has specifically recruited to play ball and the school makes sure they have every tutor and any help to take care that pesky school issue.

Saying "they are connected to the school" in a way beyond "they are connected to the major sports business the school runs" way is a big stretch.

 

[kcvols1]

Willful ignorance is confusing a person’s right to determine their own participation with the trade of goods. The 13th amendment is very clear on that. Humans are not goods.

Commerce consists of both goods and services.

Are you really making the argument that labor unions collectively bargaining compensation terms for high end services are analogous to slaveowners?

If that’s the case, I guess we’re just bound to disagree on obvious grounds.

 

[volfan102455]

Leasing the stadium and arena for bball and Anderson and the logo is given.

That's the connection to the school, isn't it?

Again, do you SERIOUSLY think these athletes come to go school ("We didn't come to play school") or to play sports?

They're not just "guys who play sports and go to school" but guys who the school has specifically recruited to play ball and the school makes sure they have every tutor and any help to take care that pesky school issue.

Saying "they are connected to the school" in a way beyond "they are connected to the major sports business the school runs" way is a big stretch.

You think that logo and brand is going to be cheap? They going to rent the cheerleaders, the band, etc. You think the university is going to hand over the brand without some rules to ensure the "brand" doesn't get trashed and reflect upon the school itself? The university would probably make just as much money as it does today without having to pay anyone.

I don't disagree that some only come to play sports - that has always been the case. The university provides them a place to come to - gives them room and board, food, pays travel expenses, provides training facilities. They want to be treated like employees yet not be an employee. Let them pay their own way. Let what they make be the direct result of how successful (profit wise) their employer is and be defined based on what they contribute.

The NIL setup is actually better for them than being an employee or being tied to something other than the university - but the aspect of it is being ruined by the greed of a few players (and their parents) who are milking the cow. I think many know that without controls of some sort the cow will eventually run out of milk.

 

[volfan102455]

Willful ignorance is confusing a person’s right to determine their own participation with the trade of goods. The 13th amendment is very clear on that. Humans are not goods.

Actually, most humans are considered "human capital" for an employer. You do a service for an employer, and the employer pays you for doing that service. When one quits one company and applies for another, they market themselves to that new company based on their skillset, knowledge, etc. In that sense one's ability is a product / good that one markets in the industry to sell to the highest bidder.

In the context of labor unions, I don't believe joining a union is a must do in order to secure work. I've worked for at least one company in my lifetime that had a union but did not join and was not forced to do so. But those who do join a labor union are making the voluntary choice to do so. And in doing so they are agreeing for the union to bargain on their behalf for the good of all. That does not break the 13th amendment otherwise there would be no labor unions at all.

The keep point within the 13th amendment was that it outlawed involuntary servitude, meaning people could no longer be forced to work against their will. I don't think anyone is making these players sign up to participate in a sport against their will.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

You think that logo and brand is going to be cheap? They going to rent the cheerleaders, the band, etc. You think the university is going to hand over the brand without some rules to ensure the "brand" doesn't get trashed and reflect upon the school itself? The university would probably make just as much money as it does today without having to pay anyone.

I don't disagree that some only come to play sports - that has always been the case. The university provides them a place to come to - gives them room and board, food, pays travel expenses, provides training facilities. They want to be treated like employees yet not be an employee. Let them pay their own way. Let what they make be the direct result of how successful (profit wise) their employer is and be defined based on what they contribute.

The NIL setup is actually better for them than being an employee or being tied to something other than the university - but the aspect of it is being ruined by the greed of a few players (and their parents) who are milking the cow. I think many know that without controls of some sort the cow will eventually run out of milk.

I'm not saying that the schools won't have rules in place to keep the image "pure" and make a ton of money from leasing the logo, stadium, etc.

I'm asking "what is the affiliation of the team to the school" beyond the logo, Neyland, etc?

It's obviously an enormous business first and the school aspect is very minimal for the players and team.

 

[adam.vol]

Commerce consists of both goods and services.

Are you really making the argument that labor unions collectively bargaining compensation terms for high end services are analogous to slaveowners?

If that’s the case, I guess we’re just bound to disagree on obvious grounds.

If a person is only able to work in their trade by joining a singular union, who not only negotiates their earning potential (without consent) but also garnishes wages, then yes. That is slavery.

You don’t have to be of African descent or row crop to be a slave. It has existed in many shapes and sizes throughout history.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

If a person is only able to work in their trade by joining a singular union, who not only negotiates their earning potential (without consent) but also garnishes wages, then yes. That is slavery.

You don’t have to be of African descent or row crop to be a slave. It has existed in many shapes and sizes throughout history.

Legally, you don't have to join a union but you still may have to pay union dues or a service fee to the union for employment. Yes, that's legal.

Pro players don't always join but most do because player's unions are instrumental in licensing deals for stuff, among other things. Whether they join or not, they pay for services the union provides and have to abide by the CBA (salary cap, etc) which the union negotiates.

Edit: I'd imagine DeerPark knows a ton about this since he's a sports related attorney.

 

[Delmar]

Serious question.

How much "affiliation" do you think the UT Athletic Dept and players ACTUALLY have with the University?

From Danny White down, how "connected" to the University do you really think of dept is to the school beyond where it sits geographically and the colors?

How "normal" do you think the life of the real recruits is these days compared to 99% of the students at UT? Do you REALLY believe they're just "guys who are students who like to play football but walk around campus just like all the other students."

I'm questioning what you want to mean when you say "affiliated."

The major sport athletes haven’t been like regular students for 60 to 70 years. Under no illusions about that. Although they don’t go to class anymore, they at least have to take some classes and get a grade even if it’s Underwater BB Stacking. I believe there have been times that the athletic department has contributed money to academic endeavors so they would seem to be a part. And I’m pretty sure that Donde Plowman (who leads the university) takes great pride in these sports being part of the university experience. Not sure how she will feel about a semipro team with no connection to the university other than the name.

I’m not telling anyone what they should do or think. I’m just saying what I will and will not support. I still watch and support the UNIVERSITY of Tennessee athletic teams. I will not support a semipro team that is simply leasing the name, stadium and band. Not happening.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

The major sport athletes haven’t been like regular students for 60 to 70 years. Under no illusions about that. Although they don’t go to class anymore, they at least have to take some classes and get a grade even if it’s Underwater BB Stacking. I believe there have been times that the athletic department has contributed money to academic endeavors so they would seem to be a part. And I’m pretty sure that Donde Plowman (who leads the university) takes great pride in these sports being part of the university experience. Not sure how she will feel about a semipro team with no connection to the university other than the name.

I’m not telling anyone what they should do or think. I’m just saying what I will and will not support. I still watch and support the UNIVERSITY of Tennessee athletic teams. I will not support a semipro team that is simply leasing the name, stadium and band. Not happening.

Fair.

And I'm not saying "that's what I always wanted for UT" but I also never wanted the school to essentially own a pro sports business.

It's a school, a dang good school, and it should have stayed in the school business like Sewanee chose years ago and Vandy (mostly) chose.

I'm not onboard with where this sports train is going for the school.