Coaches that turned it around in year 4?

#253
#253
Other_Guy said:
Stop comparing coaches and program situations! Stop looking at everyone else and look at OUR coach and OUR program and decide on whether you are happy with how things are progressing!
When you start comparing coaches you're assuming those guys and their situations are similar. You are also not being fair to (insert your coach's name) if you compare him to the greatest coaches. I SERIOUSLY doubt Butch will ever be the next Saban or Meyer, but should I.want him fired because.he's not? I.should be happy or dissatisfied due to how I feel about our program.
If Tennesssee improves just a little every year that means we're headed for the playoffs before too long, even tho most fans will give in by then. It beats.the heck out of gambling and hiring a guy, hoping 3 years he would take us to the.playoffs and keep us there.
And.not.pull a Malzahn or Chizik.
So stop comparing!
Click to expand...

I think that's a BINGO right there.^^^
 
#254
#254
sjt18 said:
Many of you are so reactionary that you take this personally. There's some pretty simple common occurrences behind why so few coaches fail to impress with wins early then go on to coach for championships.
Click to expand...

It's true that most of the championship coaches of the past 15 years have had great results by Year 2 or 3. It's also true that most of the championship coaches of the past 15 years have taken over programs in extraordinarily good shape.

(1) Urban Meyer inherited a Florida team absolutely loaded with talent. Then he inherited an Ohio State team absolutely loaded with talent. Sure, he's an excellent coach, but if he took over Tennessee in 2013, he wouldn't have gone 10-2 in 2014. That's just reality.

(2) Les Miles took over an LSU program that was in spectacular shape after Nick Saban built it back up. Once again, the roster was absolutely loaded with talent.

(3) Pete Carroll took over a USC program that came off a bad season or two, but it also had a blue chip former top-rated recruit at Quarterback and a lot of talent on the defensive side of the ball, as well.

(4) Larry Coker took over a Miami team absolutely loaded with talent. He couldn't sustain the success and got fired a few years later.

If we're being honest, almost all the programs that have won national championships in the past 15 years were in reasonably good shape prior to the arrival of the new coach. Which isn't to say they always had "great results"; there were many situations were a prior coach recruited well but didn't perform well with the talent. But those situations end up being some of the easiest turn-around jobs.

The situation at Tennessee at the end of 2012 is not remotely comparable to the situation at any other national title program the past 15 years. Tennessee needed more than an "excellent coach." It needed an excellent program builder that could quickly re-build the foundation that had collapsed in the late Fulmer years thru Dooley's disaster.

Believe or not, most recruits are smarter than you give them credit for. They can see the difference between Derek Dooley and Butch Jones. The idea that recruits will start fleeing if we go 7-5 this year (or even 8-4 and likely end the season ranked) is outright preposterous. Sure, if we go 4-8, that might happen, but not 7-5 or 8-4.

Take a look at this roster moving forward and this looks like a top 10 program. By 2017, we might be more loaded than any other team in the nation at QB with Dormady, S. Jones, JG, and Hunter Johnson all potentially being on the roster. That itself is enough to attract a lot of top recruits.

I'm just not buying the "sky is falling" narrative. Recruits look at more than wins and losses. They are smart enough to know that their future depends on the coaches, the overall program, and the players around them, and short-term results aren't necessarily indicative of the future. Right now, if you're a top recruit, you're likely seeing that Tennessee is building itself back into a top program, it has top-notch facilities, and its an ideal place to develop into an NFL-caliber player. You might not know whether Butch Jones can win a championship, but you know that UT looks like a very good situation right now. (Very different from 2012 or 2013.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 people
#255
#255
If Butch Jones loses to Va Tech or Florida he should be fired immediately!!!!!!! Florida beating us for a 12th time deserves a firing kiffen style. no team has beat us 12 times in a row. if they do at home next season bye bye butch!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#256
#256
Other_Guy said:
Stop comparing coaches and program situations! Stop looking at everyone else and look at OUR coach and OUR program and decide on whether you are happy with how things are progressing!
Click to expand...
Right. Companies should stop comparing themselves to the competition... just decide whether they're satisfied with their "progress". Our military shouldn't worry about the enemies they might fight... if they "feel good" about themselves. While we're at it, let's just stop keeping score and start measuring "success" by how good fans "feel" about the team.

When you start comparing coaches you're assuming those guys and their situations are similar.
Click to expand...
No. You are only assuming the TRUTH... that the situations ultimately don't matter when it comes to image in the media and especially attractiveness to recruits.
You are also not being fair to (insert your coach's name) if you compare him to the greatest coaches. I SERIOUSLY doubt Butch will ever be the next Saban or Meyer, but should I.want him fired because.he's not? I.should be happy or dissatisfied due to how I feel about our program.
Click to expand...
Two points here. One, life's not fair Simba. You want "fair" then join 4H.

Two, UT should NEVER settle for less than a championship coach. NEVER. So if that's what you are settling for... then we have NO common ground.

If Tennesssee improves just a little every year that means we're headed for the playoffs before too long, even tho most fans will give in by then.
Click to expand...
That simply doesn't align with history or the reality of the cutthroat world of recruiting. If he doesn't show he can put a product on the field then UT will stop getting the players it needs to progress to the playoffs.

It beats.the heck out of gambling and hiring a guy, hoping 3 years he would take us to the.playoffs and keep us there.
And.not.pull a Malzahn or Chizik.
So stop comparing!
Click to expand...

You mean the formula that has worked for USC, Bama, UF, LSU, yes Auburn, tOSU, Michigan, etc?

These schools all went through a series of bad coaches who weren't kept long before finding a championship coach. Most... followed a good set up guy. If Jones fails... he looks like a GREAT set up guy as long as UT doesn't wait too long before hiring the "right" coach.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#257
#257
DiderotsGhost said:
It's true that most of the championship coaches of the past 15 years have had great results by Year 2 or 3. It's also true that most of the championship coaches of the past 15 years have taken over programs in extraordinarily good shape....
If we're being honest, almost all the programs that have won national championships in the past 15 years were in reasonably good shape prior to the arrival of the new coach. Which isn't to say they always had "great results"; there were many situations were a prior coach recruited well but didn't perform well with the talent. But those situations end up being some of the easiest turn-around jobs.
Click to expand...
I think I actually made that point as well. I know. It isn't "fair". But "fair" has no bearing on anything. Recruits want to see results.... or they'll go to someone who has shown results or at least someone whose "promises" can't so easily be shot full of holes. Jones lived on promises for 3 recruiting classes. Starting with this one... he needs to be able to point to tangible results. I'm sorry but 7 or less wins and no WR on the team out of all of those 4* guys with over 500 yds... ain't going to be impressive to them.

He can't even sell early playing time any more.

The situation at Tennessee at the end of 2012 is not remotely comparable to the situation at any other national title program the past 15 years.
Click to expand...
Yes. It was. But most if not all of the coaches who took those jobs either didn't survive or built to a point then got out of town.

Believe or not, most recruits are smarter than you give them credit for. They can see the difference between Derek Dooley and Butch Jones. The idea that recruits will start fleeing if we go 7-5 this year (or even 8-4 and likely end the season ranked) is outright preposterous. Sure, if we go 4-8, that might happen, but not 7-5 or 8-4.
Click to expand...
Hide... and watch. It isn't just the record. UT's HIGHEST ranked WR is Malone... at #35. Do you think that opposing recruiters aren't telling WR prospects that?

Take a look at this roster moving forward and this looks like a top 10 program. By 2017, we might be more loaded than any other team in the nation at QB with Dormady, S. Jones, JG, and Hunter Johnson all potentially being on the roster. That itself is enough to attract a lot of top recruits.

I'm just not buying the "sky is falling" narrative. Recruits look at more than wins and losses. They are smart enough to know that their future depends on the coaches, the overall program, and the players around them, and short-term results aren't necessarily indicative of the future. Right now, if you're a top recruit, you're likely seeing that Tennessee is building itself back into a top program, it has top-notch facilities, and its an ideal place to develop into an NFL-caliber player. You might not know whether Butch Jones can win a championship, but you know that UT looks like a very good situation right now. (Very different from 2012 or 2013.)
Click to expand...
Keep telling yourself that recruits don't care about wins and stats. If Jones fails to win 8 games this year and fails to have a passing game that excites recruits and fails to perform on D... then recruits are going to start having doubts about promises. If he overcomes those obstacles then he will probably be a first.

UT doesn't appear to be in on a really elite RB this year either. Fils-aime is a good looking player but he's a project due to size.
 
#258
#258
govols105 said:
If Butch Jones loses to Va Tech or Florida he should be fired immediately!!!!!!! Florida beating us for a 12th time deserves a firing kiffen style. no team has beat us 12 times in a row. if they do at home next season bye bye butch!
Click to expand...
I do not know how any rational person can continue to say he's the answer for the program if he doesn't take a MAJOR step forward next fall which includes a win vs UF.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#259
#259
Good post, Diderot!

Let's push this "turn it around" analogy a bit.

So there are the immediate u-turns, like Malzahn at Auburn ... basement of the SEC one year, undefeated the next. Those fast, tight reversals, they only come if the car's already in great shape--superior power, superior handling, just needs a driver worthy of it. That's Meyer coming into Florida, Carroll at USC, etc. And apparently McElwain at Florida, too.

Then there are the turns that have to be made one compass point at a time, because the chief mechanic is hanging out the driver's window fixing the brakes and tuning the engine even as he steers and coaxes some forward momentum out of what he's got. Those turns can take a while, years in fact. That's Butch's situation when he arrived.

So you don't look for a sudden shift from 3-9 to 14-0. No, you look for something like 5-6 followed by 7-6 followed by 9-4. Five wins ... seven wins ... nine wins. That's the gradual reversal expected when the inherited machine was in really bad shape.

And that's what we're seeing.

[and that's probably about as far as that analogy can be pushed, heh]
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 people
#260
#260
VFL-82-JP said:
Good post, Diderot!

Let's push this "turn it around" analogy a bit.

So there are the immediate u-turns, like Malzahn at Auburn ... basement of the SEC one year, undefeated the next. Those fast, tight reversals, they only come if the car's already in great shape--superior power, superior handling, just needs a driver worthy of it. That's Meyer coming into Florida, Carroll at USC, etc. And apparently McElwain at Florida, too.

Then there are the turns that have to be made one compass point at a time, because the chief mechanic is hanging out the driver's window fixing the brakes and tuning the engine even as he steers and coaxes some forward momentum out of what he's got. Those turns can take a while, years in fact. That's Butch's situation when he arrived.

So you don't look for a sudden shift from 3-9 to 14-0. No, you look for something like 5-6 followed by 7-6 followed by 9-4. Five wins ... seven wins ... nine wins. That's the gradual reversal expected when the inherited machine was in really bad shape.

And that's what we're seeing.

[and that's probably about as far as that analogy can be pushed, heh]
Click to expand...

Yeah. That's what you look for. You DON'T look for what amounts to treading water in year 3. The schedule this year is weaker than last year. This year's 8 is pretty close to last year's 6.

But since you are agreeing with his argument then maybe you can cite a good example of someone who didn't get 8+ wins within 3 years and then won championships at THAT school. There aren't many.... we've been over it multiple times.

MOST championship coaches follow someone who set them up over 3 or 4 years and left them with a good roster.
 
#261
#261
FWIW, I am one of the ones who thinks UT WILL win out. I think the Vols are more talented than the final 5 opponents. I also think the Jones who coached vs Ark, UGA, and Bama is better or at least as good as any remaining opposing coach to include Pinkel. He CANNOT relapse into UF/OU.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#263
#263
sjt18 said:
But since you are agreeing with his argument then maybe you can cite a good example of someone who didn't get 8+ wins within 3 years and then won championships at THAT school. There aren't many.... we've been over it multiple
Click to expand...

General Neyland 1947-5 wins, 1948-4wins, 1949-7 wins. Then won back to back nattys the next two years.

Bear Bryant's first three years at Alabama 5,7,8 wins. Wish they'd of ran him off for not getting it done.

Didn't read thru the whole argument but that was just a couple I thought of, sorry if I repeated previous posts.

There are holes in both sides of this discussion. I'm not 100% sold on CBJ, but it's too early to write him off imho.
 
#264
#264
sjt18 said:
.

Two, UT should NEVER settle for less than a championship coach. NEVER.
Click to expand...

If we take out elite team/player led championships
Cam Newton or Winston type ordeals. Assuming that most agree those championships were won because of the exceptional athlete and probably not won had they never been there. Repeating a championship coaching drive is the only real proof. Or at the very least, being close.
There is only 2 repeat championship coaches. Meyer and Saban (Pete Carroll was very close but obviously no longer in the mix)
When people make references like "proven champions" are we talking about Nick and Urban? Cause I don't see either of those as likely.
Outside of those 2, No one else has repeated with their follow-up teams, implying that it wasn't a coaching championship as much as a good coach with 'that team'
If not one of those two coaches, who is "proven"?

EDIT: I strongly recommend reading further before responding.
 
Last edited:
#265
#265
sjt18 said:
...But since you are agreeing with his argument then maybe you can cite a good example of someone who didn't get 8+ wins within 3 years and then won championships at THAT school....
Click to expand...

But SJT, your question presumes that Butch & Co won't get 8 or 9 wins this year.

So if they do, then we're good...right?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
#266
#266
VFL-82-JP said:
But SJT, your question presumes that Butch & Co won't get 8 or 9 wins this year.

So if they do, then we're good...right?
Click to expand...

GOLDEN!!...but then sjt has to pull out his abacus and start working on attrition mandates! :scare:
 
#267
#267
northknoxvol said:
Good question by a caller today.....can anyone name any coaches who turned it around and started winning in year 4 that did not have any success in the first 3 years?
Click to expand...

One very important thing to remember is what conference we play in. You have to recruit, recruit, and develop.
We are on the way.
 
#268
#268
I just watched NorthCarS (first drive of game) go for it, 4th and 3 from around the 12 or 15 or so -- TD. Of course, blocked pat, but that's the way to start momentum ! Woww (UT / OU 2015 -- kick from the 2.5 ft line).
 
#269
#269
sjt18 said:
You mean the formula that has worked for USC, Bama, UF, LSU, yes Auburn, tOSU, Michigan, etc?

These schools all went through a series of bad coaches who weren't kept long before finding a championship coach. Most... followed a good set up guy. If Jones fails... he looks like a GREAT set up guy as long as UT doesn't wait too long before hiring the "right" coach.
Click to expand...
It's not always that simple. PC was a failure in the NFL and certainly not SC's first choice. That fan base was pissed at that hire. Bama lucked into Saban. They all but hired richrod until he bailed on them last minute. It's easy to point to a formula in hindsight, but plenty of "home run" hires don't work out.
 
#270
#270
sjt18 said:
Right. Companies should stop comparing themselves to the competition... just decide whether they're satisfied with their "progress". Our military shouldn't worry about the enemies they might fight... if they "feel good" about themselves. While we're at it, let's just stop keeping score and start measuring "success" by how good fans "feel" about the team.

No. You are only assuming the TRUTH... that the situations ultimately don't matter when it comes to image in the media and especially attractiveness to recruits.
Two points here. One, life's not fair Simba. You want "fair" then join 4H.

Two, UT should NEVER settle for less than a championship coach. NEVER. So if that's what you are settling for... then we have NO common ground.

That simply doesn't align with history or the reality of the cutthroat world of recruiting. If he doesn't show he can put a product on the field then UT will stop getting the players it needs to progress to the playoffs.



You mean the formula that has worked for USC, Bama, UF, LSU, yes Auburn, tOSU, Michigan, etc?

These schools all went through a series of bad coaches who weren't kept long before finding a championship coach. Most... followed a good set up guy. If Jones fails... he looks like a GREAT set up guy as long as UT doesn't wait too long before hiring the "right" coach.
Click to expand...

I think some of the things I said came across wrong, because I don't disagree with everything you're saying in response. I'm on mobile so I can't really respond to each thing like how you did, but I will summarize it up by responding your final paragraph.

Jones is at worst a great setup guy. I've agreed with that before. However, my comments were aimed at those who at the beginningof the season were acting like if Butch doesn't pull a "so n so" and blow it up in 3 year he isn't the guy/prpbably should be fired. I.didn't mean it was unfair to Butch but its not a fair.assesment when UT was in such a different state than some other programs listed.
If UT is getting better each year, why would you fire the guy until his teams get worse or.don't appear to ever get any better? Maybe this team.doesn't look a lot better, but if they're 8-4 this year, then 9-3 next year, do you let him go because he didn't get it done quicker than so n so?
I've not a business guy, but but of course you should look at your competition. I'm not dumb lol... but if you are slowly making money and closing the gap on your rivals, don't you be.patient until its proven you aren't going to get where you want, or take the risk and fire everyone and possibly regress a year or 2?
If we don't think the right guy would be hired - ala Hamilton - then change needs to start higher because even right now, I'm not sure UT is still very desirable if we can't sell the.farm for that top guy.
 
#273
#273
chargervol said:
If we take out elite team/player led championships
Cam Newton or Winston type ordeals. Assuming that most agree those championships were won because of the exceptional athlete and probably not won had they never been there. Repeating a championship coaching drive is the only real proof. Or at the very least, being close.
There is only 2 repeat championship coaches. Meyer and Saban (Pete Carroll was very close but obviously no longer in the mix)
When people make references like "proven champions" are we talking about Nick and Urban? Cause I don't see either of those as likely.
Outside of those 2, No one else has repeated with their follow-up teams, implying that it wasn't a coaching championship as much as a good coach with 'that team'
If not one of those two coaches, who is "proven"?
Click to expand...

Only coaches who repeat are proven? Pete Carroll wasn't? Wtf
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.

VN Store



Back
Top