Charge Call on Fulky....

[VolGee4]

I addressed this earlier. Typically a crew develops a stated or unstated “we’re going to let them play” or “we’re calling all the things we see” attitude. On high school crews, I’ve even had the lead ref express that. This game allowed endless checking and pushing. Santi literally pushed off on the scoring play before. The one thing that never passes by an official, right or wrong, is a push that puts the receiving player on the floor.

Then let's just call it what it is- inconsistently bad officiating. End thread.

 

[ColinS]

At what point is the AU defender in a legal guarding position and illegally contacted by a UT player? I will issue you the same challenge I have others questioning the validity of a call on Santi. Where's the beef?

They just collided trying to get the same spot they were both legally entitled too. Kind of like a simultaneous collision on a loose ball. Not all contact is a foul.

 

[Stoerner Fumbles]

They just collided trying to get the same spot they were both legally entitled too. Kind of like a simultaneous collision on a loose ball. Not all contact is a foul.

Glad you solved it. We were having a hard time.

 

[ColinS]

Glad you solved it. We were having a hard time.

Yeah, I'm known as the team doctor and coach, but what people don't realize is I'm also the head of officials. Obviously I'm not as good at that as the others so I try to keep that a secret.

 

[bleedrng]

On another note. That 4 point play by Smith in the last minute. He looked like Fred Astaire tap dancing before the shot. What'd he take, 5-6 steps?

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

I addressed this earlier. Typically a crew develops a stated or unstated “we’re going to let them play” or “we’re calling all the things we see” attitude. On high school crews, I’ve even had the lead ref express that. This game allowed endless checking and pushing. Santi literally pushed off on the scoring play before. The one thing that never passes by an official, right or wrong, is a push that puts the receiving player on the floor.

Really. You have made this reference multiple times. He scored at 2:04 with our previous basket about a minute before by JJJ I think. and I have watched the replay over and over after we crossed half court about 10 times and have yet to see anything remotely close to a foul on Santi on a drive to the hole. How about supplying game time on the clock and player number you think he fouled for verification purposes. Not sure how that would be relevant to THE PLAY, but welcome all facts. You might even throw in some video evidence.

To get back on task with FACTS, reconcile the call made with these facts.

Art. 1. Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. The guarding position shall be initially established and then maintained inbounds on the playing court.

Art. 5. To establish legal guarding position on a player without the ball: a. Time and distance shall be required to establish an initial legal guarding position; b. The guard shall give the opponent enough time and distance to avoid contact;

Are you saying this official could take the position that the defender was legally established while in full stride with his lead foot in between Santi's, also in full stride with enough space for Santi to avoid the contact? The rule is pretty clear on that. Can Santi foul a guy that has not established position? Don't think you have have two feet established like you do on the guy with the ball, BUT.

As an aside, check out the proximity of the official to Pearl. That is a fact, not sure if it is a factor.

I believe this is the last instant before any significant contact. Notice that his toe is at Santi's heel, so Santi beat him to the SPOT. Click on the image and it is easy to see when it expands.

 

[Stoerner Fumbles]

Really. You have made this reference multiple times. He scored at 2:04 with our previous basket about a minute before by JJJ I think. and I have watched the replay over and over after we crossed half court about 10 times and have yet to see anything remotely close to a foul on Santi on a drive to the hole. How about supplying game time on the clock and player number you think he fouled for verification purposes. Not sure how that would be relevant to THE PLAY, but welcome all facts. You might even throw in some video evidence.

To get back on task with FACTS, reconcile the call made with these facts.

Art. 1. Guarding is the act of legally placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent. The guarding position shall be initially established and then maintained inbounds on the playing court.

Art. 5. To establish legal guarding position on a player without the ball: a. Time and distance shall be required to establish an initial legal guarding position; b. The guard shall give the opponent enough time and distance to avoid contact;

Are you saying this official could take the position that the defender was legally established while in full stride with his lead foot in between Santi's, also in full stride with enough space for Santi to avoid the contact? The rule is pretty clear on that. Can Santi foul a guy that has not established position? Don't think you have have two feet established like you do on the guy with the ball, BUT.

As an aside, check out the proximity of the official to Pearl. That is a fact, not sure if it is a factor.

I believe this is the last instant before any significant contact.

View attachment 436540

No referee enforces anything regarding position or space when a guarded player (without the ball) is trying to get open, cut, or screen. The defender is following the patterns set by the movement of the offensive player. Since the modern game is mired with the complexity of high ball screens, moving screens, back cuts, motion offenses, switching defenders etc, the simplistic notion of “position” of a defender isn’t the same. In an instance where an offensive player has the ball, or is cutting straight to the goal, defensive position is still monitored. In an instance like this when an offensive player is engaged in physical contact during a cut, no ref is going to call a foul on a defender for not maintaining space or position. There’s no way to judge it or enforce it because there is no way for a defender to maintain it. I understand that you don’t understand, but frankly, I can’t help you.

As you behavior begins to mirror the Zodiac Killer or the Unabomber, I’ll point out a couple of things in hopes that someone intervenes before your obsession takes down the internet. I don’t think you’ve ever refereed or coached a game. I don’t think you’ve had to study the rules to take a written test, or been assessed as a referee. If you had been through that training or had in-game experience as a referee, you wouldn’t be presenting this delusional press kit full of nonsense. Again, I have taken that annoying test, have referred probably just under a hundred games and have been graded on performance. It’s a hobby and something I’ve done to stay connected to a sport I love while my kids play. We don’t call D position fouls on a guarding defender EVER. We do call a physical push with hands anytime we see it. I’m sorry this doesn’t fit your narrative, but it’s just a fact. I do see that you’ve worked with the Adobe software suite and enjoy activities to keep you busy. To the extent that this keeps you from bothering people engaged in employment or other aspects of life, I applaud it. In this instance, it’s become an endlessly annoying distraction over an unimportant detail during a series of events you obviously can’t comprehend. Again- kudos for your hard work and use of bold fonts, arrows, still images, and the cut and paste function. You’ve also obviously spent an inordinate amount of time with a television in the last few days. Maybe now is a good time for a snack and a nap. Tap on the basement ceiling with the plunger handle, and I bet someone will come feed you. Until then, just breathe. All the best.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

No referee enforces anything regarding position or space when a guarded player (without the ball) is trying to get open, cut, or screen. The defender is following the patterns set by the movement of the offensive player. Since the modern game is mired with the complexity of high ball screens, moving screens, back cuts, motion offenses, switching defenders etc, the simplistic notion of “position” of a defender isn’t the same. In an instance where an offensive player has the ball, or is cutting straight to the goal, defensive position is still monitored. In an instance like this when an offensive player is engaged in physical contact during a cut, no ref is going to call a foul on a defender for not maintaining space or position. There’s no way to judge it or enforce it because there is no way for a defender to maintain it. I understand that you don’t understand, but frankly, I can’t help you.

As you behavior begins to mirror the Zodiac Killer or the Unabomber, I’ll point out a couple of things in hopes that someone intervenes before your obsession takes down the internet. I don’t think you’ve ever refereed or coached a game. I don’t think you’ve had to study the rules to take a written test, or been assessed as a referee. If you had been through that training or had in-game experience as a referee, you wouldn’t be presenting this delusional press kit full of nonsense. Again, I have taken that annoying test, have referred probably just under a hundred games and have been graded on performance. It’s a hobby and something I’ve done to stay connected to a sport I love while my kids play. We don’t call D position fouls on a guarding defender EVER. We do call a physical push with hands anytime we see it. I’m sorry this doesn’t fit your narrative, but it’s just a fact. I do see that you’ve worked with the Adobe software suite and enjoy activities to keep you busy. To the extent that this keeps you from bothering people engaged in employment or other aspects of life, I applaud it. In this instance, it’s become an endlessly annoying distraction over an unimportant detail during a series of events you obviously can’t comprehend. Again- kudos for your hard work and use of bold fonts, arrows, still images, and the cut and paste function. You’ve also obviously spent an inordinate amount of time with a television in the last few days. Maybe now is a good time for a snack and a nap. Tap on the basement ceiling with the plunger handle, and I bet someone will come feed you. Until then, just breathe. All the best.

The game situation seemed to require that he JUDGE a foul on someone. You have alluded to Santi pushing this guy. How about showing him pushing the guy before the contact on Fulky. Or answer the simple questions I put out there.

1. Did the defender establish legal guarding position?
2. Can Santi be charged for the foul for the contact if he had not?

You simply want to provide coverage for refs by building in plausible deniability for all game situations.

You have also continued to make errant statements. The latest is to assume that I had zero training. Not that I would flaunt it as a basis for world class experience, but I do have an elective of Sports Officiating on by college transcript. I did therefore call intramural games for a couple of years. I did learn I was not good enough at it and got out. Therefore I have less tolerance for official's errors than most. Too many hang on too long. I will not accept that guys in stripes cannot attempt enforce the rules a written. They are bound by human frailties but they write the rules down and publish them for a reason.

Your omnipotence is once again called into question on your assessment of my tool box. I am on a 3 year old sub $200 laptop and have only used my print screen key and copy and paste to supply the graphic evidence to support my position. OH Well.

On top of that right after college I lived dang near in sight of the the TSSAA and spent a lot of mornings having breakfast at Shoney's with some pretty sharp guys. I would call on them to the best of their ability to clarify rules and controversial rulings in the college games I viewed or attended. I have over the years downloaded or bookmarked football and basketball rulebooks so I can more intelligently address situations like we are dealing with here. Off the cuff crap is just not my style. I may be wrong but it won't be from application of arrogance, lack of effort or pure ignorance.

You are right on one thing. I have spent a lot time on this and similar issues. I have used my old retired guy spending more time at home hiding from COVID time to get on these boards during the cold winter months. That makes you about 1 out of 10 on your declarative statements about me.

Bottom line in this game situation the rulebook put the onus on the defender to establish legal defensive position to get a foul on the offensive guy if contact occurred requiring a foul call and with any application of reasonable judgement he did not. The ref called it on Santi anyway. Bad call unless someone can provide superseding rules or evidence otherwise. General game conditions won't get it done. If you have any of these please share them. If not please feel free to go back and assume your position at the right hand of GOD.

 

[walkenvol]

You guys should visit the political forum as you rival their abilities to extend a difference of opinion!

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

I may have found the basic problem with SEC officials from last nights LSU Arky game with I think the same crew. I say think the same becuase I cannot find a box score with them listed.

There seems to be systemic problem with very late in the half judgments on fouls. Our call was on a player without the ball, the one I will show clips of following this entry is the more common block/charge call. To that end I will post the rule involved in the second subsequent post.

I think this pic is telling as well.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

The before shot. Notice the shooter elevating and the off the floor and the position of the defender's foot and relative position to the lane.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

The after shot with the shooter still off the floor way outside the position the defender had established at best and still not established with two feet on the floor.






Rule 4-17.7)
Art. 4. To establish an initial legal guarding position on the player with the ball:
a. The guard shall have both feet touching the playing court. When the guard
jumps into position initially, both feet must return to the playing court after
the jump, for the guard to establish a legal guarding position.
b. The guard’s torso shall face the opponent from any direction.
50 Rule 4 / Definitions
c. No time and distance shall be required.
d. When the opponent with the ball is airborne, the guard shall have
established legal guarding position before the opponent left the playing
court. (Exception: Rule 4-17.7)

Anybody buying this was in any way a charge on the LSU guy? There are limits to the latitude we can accept from ref's.

Just like our game, the replays are just like red light cameras. No place to hide. How did the ref not call one of those meetings they like to have and clean this up? Oddly enough the guy making the call I think is in the defensive bench area.

I was channel surfing, and this was within the one minute I was on this game.