Carr/Fulmer comparison

#1
molsen81

molsen81

San Francisco Bay Area Vol!
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#1
Ok, I want some honest opinions on this. I was listening to "The Herd" show this morning. They brought up the fact that although Lloyd Carr has an undefeated season , two very good seasons, and a nice winning record, the wins were against lesser opponents and he has a difficult time with ranked teams like Ohio State. This profile appears to be similar to CPF, but we're not asking for his head on a platter. Of course we have the usual people who want CPF fired, but not like what's going on with Carr. So what do you think? Are these two coaches the same? Have Michigan fans been spoiled too long? I would like to say that what gives CPF the advantage is that we play in a tougher conference with more even teams. Just want opinions.
 
#3
#3
We haven't had a terrible terrible loss, and he's gotten his crap kicked around twice in a row at home

we did have the 5-6 year (gosh....) but bounced back nicely and cutcliffe helps a lot with firepower on offense

it has escalated even more this year for carr because he has lost 4 games in a row and given up an average of like 300+ yards and an avg. of like 36 points in that span.. who knows though

also.. michigan/ohio state is THE game

we have.. georgia, florida, bama, kentucky, vandy, and basically all of the SEC that are gigantic games
 
#4
#4
Any coach can come into michigan and regurally win 10 games. The same can not be said for tenn. My $.02
 
#5
#5
^^ just noticed your little cough cough thing... won't comment
 
#7
#7
it has escalated even more this year for carr because he has lost 4 games in a row and given up an average of like 300+ yards and an avg. of like 36 points in that span.. who knows though
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More precisely, over their 4-game losing streak going back to last year, Michigan's defense has yielded an average of 488 yards per game. The funny thing is that, up to the OSU game last year, all the analysts were bending over and kissing Ron English's a**. It appears he's not the magic worker many people thought he was.

There are some parallels between Fulmer's and Carr's careers, but, as has been stated in this thread already, Fulmer has never lost to a Div-2 team. In fact, I don't think he's ever coached against a Div-2 team. Anyways, the way Oregon went into the "Big House" and made Michigan look like a high school football team (on top of the home loss to App. State) should have been enough to warrant his immediate dismissal. I think Fulmer would be gone if the same thing happened to him.
 
#8
#8
In my opinion, our defense has never been that unprepared like Michigan this year. Even though we are pretty bad right now. But this did bail Fulmer out in 2005. By the way, Appalachian State is a former I-AA team not Division II.
 
#9
#9
last year i read on another forum (internet forum -- how accurate a source could that be? :) ) that carr's record against ranked teams was awesome -- something like 18-6. iirc CPF is around the .500 mark for his career against ranked teams.
 
#10
#10
Michigan plays a Big Ten juggernaut that consists of Illinois, Northwestern, Minnesota, Indiana, Iowa, Purdue, and (most years) Michigan State. There is never more than three top-level teams in any given year, and there never will be. And gee whiz, look how dominant the Big Ten is this year.

There's also a chance every year that the top Big Ten teams don't even play each other. Heck, in 2002 there were two schools that were 8-0 in conference.
 
#11
#11
exotic_vols said:
In my opinion, our defense has never been that unprepared like Michigan this year. Even though we are pretty bad right now. But this did bail Fulmer out in 2005. By the way, Appalachian State is a former I-AA team not Division II.
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By the way, App State STILL IS a I-AA team.
 
#12
#12
Another difference:

UT plays in a conference where there are still 6 teams in the top 25. There were 7 until Auburn met USF. Playing schedules where there is regularly 50% or more of the conference occupying 25-28% of the AP top 25 would lend to slightly more leniency in perfmance evaluations.
 
#13
#13
Al Groh will get the ax before Carr. UM will wait 'till the end of the season, UVA may not.
 
#14
#14
rexvol said:
Al Groh will get the ax before Carr. UM will wait 'till the end of the season, UVA may not.
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Yeah, it's kind of sad that the last decent teams VA had were when they had Tikki. He has not impressed me professionally as an NFL announcer/Today Show marketing grunt. Spends too much time on himself. Can't stand has been players turned announcers that can only talk about themselves and how good they were. If you can't commentate objectively, please don't hurt my ears.
 
#15
#15
exotic_vols said:
In my opinion, our defense has never been that unprepared like Michigan this year. Even though we are pretty bad right now. But this did bail Fulmer out in 2005. By the way, Appalachian State is a former I-AA team not Division II.
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Bail him out? 5-6 is a bail out?

I think the Carr/CPF comparisons are pretty accurate, as are the UT/UM comparisons in the past 12 years or so. Tons of great players, big stadiums, storied programs, very similar records, 1 NC, a lot of "woulda, coulda, shouldas" too. And, unfortunately for both, a bit of a slide in recent years.

One big difference is Carr never coached a team that finished under .500 for the season. If he does this year and they fire him, I guess that would be another difference btwn the two coaches and schools.
 
#16
#16
wbarron said:
Bail him out? 5-6 is a bail out?

I think the Carr/CPF comparisons are pretty accurate, as are the UT/UM comparisons in the past 12 years or so. Tons of great players, big stadiums, storied programs, very similar records, 1 NC, a lot of "woulda, coulda, shouldas" too. And, unfortunately for both, a bit of a slide in recent years.

One big difference is Carr never coached a team that finished under .500 for the season. If he does this year and they fire him, I guess that would be another difference btwn the two coaches and schools.
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Good points. I think the main gist of some that argue whether or not Fulmer should stay or go is not the fact that we're bad, because we aren't. I think it lends more to being stagnant.
 
#17
#17
While there are a few similarities, there are also some notable differences. Fulmer may have lost his touch, but he built Tennessee into a better team than what they were prior to his arrival. Carr inherited a dominant program and has presided over their slow decline.

1.
Llyod Carr's best season 1997, 12-0 National Champions, was his third season there, coaching Juniors and Seniors recruited by someone else.

Fulmer's best season 1998, 13-0 National Champions, was with players he brought into the program.

2.
In Carr's 13 years as Michigan's coach, they've had 3 seasons with two or fewer losses, compared to 7 in the 13 years prior to his tenure.

Under Fulmer, Tennessee has had 6 seasons with two or fewer losses compared to 4 in the 20 years prior.
 
#18
#18
Volmania said:
Fulmer may have lost his touch, but he built Tennessee into a better team than what they were prior to his arrival.
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Fulmer had a 4 year run from 95-98 where he elevated UT into a top 5 caliber program. Since that point I would say that the UT program is very similar to where it was at the end of the Majors era, the one difference being that Coach Majors did manage to win 3 conference championships in his final 8 seasons.
 
#20
#20
I find it hard to imagine a situation where Carr keeps his job. What I do know, is that a win over OSU is an absolute must, and that I would say is a bigger thing than winning the Big 10 this year.
 
#21
#21
tm3 said:
last year i read on another forum (internet forum -- how accurate a source could that be? :) ) that carr's record against ranked teams was awesome -- something like 18-6. iirc CPF is around the .500 mark for his career against ranked teams.
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If Carr's only coached against 24 ranked opponents in his entire tenure at Michigan, then his overall coaching record is propped up by wins over a bunch of unranked teams. Counting the Cal game this year, Fulmer's record versus ranked opponents is 41-32. That includes 6-0 in 1998, 0-5 in 2002, and 1-4 in 2005.

The best measuring stick would be the lone head-to-head competition. Tennessee 45, Michigan 17.
 
#22
#22
Fulmer never lost to Appy State, but he did coach a team much better than the 2007 Wolverines to a loss against Memphis.
 
#23
#23
MyBloodRunnethOrange said:
Fulmer had a 4 year run from 95-98 where he elevated UT into a top 5 caliber program. Since that point I would say that the UT program is very similar to where it was at the end of the Majors era, the one difference being that Coach Majors did manage to win 3 conference championships in his final 8 seasons.
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Just to be fair, we also finished #4 in the country in 2001.

Actually some of our fan's attitude towards Fulmer reminds me a lot of what happened with Majors.

Many never give him a break again after the 1988 5-6 season. Even though he bounced back in his final full three seasons to have 1, 2 and 3 loss years, two SEC Championships and 3 major bowls; his inability to beat Bama combined with that sour memory of 5-6 was just too much for a lot of fans to ever get over.
 
#25
#25
i think the comparison is favorable. where john cooper left off as the wipping boy for losing to MIch all the time at OSU upon his departure, Lloyd Carr took over on Jim Tressell's hiring for losing to Ohio State all the time. what has happened the last two weeks is the straw that broke the camels back. the only thing that i would throw in CPF's ball court is the difficulty of winning the SEC via an SEC championship game. in the Big 10 you still have co champions, so a Big 10 title doesn't carry as much weight, imo, as an SEC title. there were years where OSU, MIch, Iowa and/or Wisc have all tied for the big 10 title....where as with CPF, he's won the East 4 times and is 2-2 in the title game.

but in the end, i think both are looked at in much the same light, good bad or indifferent.
 
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