Butch Jones in the 4th quarter

#152
#152
volfan102455 said:
It is only a problem when you lose by a point.

The thing is had he went for 2 and didn't make it, then lost by 1 or had the game go into OT and lost, folks would be complaining that he should have kicked the extra point.
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The points in this whole thread are only a problem when you lose, period. Stating that Jones lost games by going conservative is just speculation fueled by anger and the benefit of hindsight.

"Aggressive" play calling can lead first downs, and MAY have given a win. But, it can also lead to interceptions, fumbles and huge losses of yardage. There's no doubt that aggressive play calling would have changed the complexion of those games. But, you have consider that they could have changed them for the worse.

I guess if the O had given up a pick six, a short field or a fumble or two, maybe they would have played the fourth quarter from behind, which seemed to help them. :)

Not to mention, if the would have broken a handful of those running calls for first downs, they would have won anyway.

As has been stated by several other posters, coaches' decisions are most often judged by the outcome rather than the "wisdom" of the decision itself.
 
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#153
#153
SaintLouisVol said:
The points in this whole thread are only a problem when you lose, period. Stating that Jones lost games by going conservative is just speculation fueled by anger and the benefit of hindsight.

"Aggressive" play calling can lead first downs, and MAY have given a win. But, it can also lead to interceptions, fumbles and huge losses of yardage. There's no doubt that aggressive play calling would have changed the complexion of those games. But, you have consider that they could have changed them for the worse.

I guess if the O had given up a pick six, a short field or a fumble or two, maybe they would have played the fourth quarter from behind, which seemed to help them. :)

Not to mention, if the would have broken a handful of those running calls for first downs, they would have won anyway.

As has been stated by several other posters, coaches' decisions are most often judged by the outcome rather than the "wisdom" of the decision itself.
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It is easy to play the "what if coaching game" after the fact. One can make their own assumptions and assume the "what if" changes they would have made would have made a difference, when there is a good chance the outcome would have been the same or worse.

UT also would have won had they stopped one of the many 4th down conversions but that would have pointed to a different issue and not the play calling of Jones and would not meet the agenda that some on here have.
 
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#154
#154
volfan102455 said:
It is easy to play the "what if coaching game" after the fact. One can make their own assumptions and assume the "what if" changes they would have made would have made a difference, when there is a good chance the outcome would have been the same or worse.

UT also would have won had they stopped one of the many 4th down conversions but that would have pointed to a different issue and not the play calling of Jones and would not meet the agenda that some on here have.
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This is a good post.
 
#156
#156
Oklahoma game is on the U right now. 17-3 in the 4th. I can't believe I'm watching this. Angry posts to follow.
 
#157
#157
wmcovol said:
Coaches kick the Xpt up 12 all of the time. Especially when their defense had dominated the offense most of the day.

Butch didn't figure for his defense to give up a 17 play drive, gas out and then get lazy on a pass play. In hindsight, yeah it sucked not having the2pt but losing in OT would have been just as bad. Defense was gassed at that point.

Lack of depth on defense had more to do with late game failures LY than coaching. Jmo
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If he had gone for 2 and we hadn't gotten it then we lose by 2 points.....if we convert it, then we at least give ourselves the opportunity to play in OT. By kicking the extra point, you lose by one point and don't give yourself any chance to play for OT. So essentially, the extra point was useless either way. That's why every chart says you go for two when leading by 12.

Here's what the RockyTopInsider guys said about it.....

1. Not going for two when taking the 26-14 lead in the fourth quarter

"This one has been discussed time and time again since the game, and it’s probably the worst of the them all. With 10:19 remaining in the game, the Vols go up 26-14 after a punishing drive finished off with a Jalen Hurd 10-yard touchdown run on third and goal from the 10. CBS cameras catch Jones emphatically putting one finger up, perhaps to clarify the confusion of those on the sideline who were assuming the Vols would go for two to try to get the 14-point lead.

Some of these critiques involved a fair amount of hindsight, but this one didn’t. Virtually everybody in the press box around me was asking why they weren’t going for two. We tweeted that it was an “interesting” decision at the time and a majority of responses came in saying they disagreed with the decision. Jones said the decision was based on a chart, but common sense says at this point, the odds of Florida getting three possessions, scoring a touchdown and kicking two field goals for the wins are significantly lower than the Gators scoring two touchdowns and taking the lead. The reward of a potential 14-point lead far outweighed the risk of a 12-point lead, and that’s why this, regardless of the coming outcome, was a poor decision."
 
#158
#158
This thread is much ado about nothing. We lost because the defense was something like Zero for Ten on game winning stops. Not because a coach was Zero for One on a decision to maybe (very maybe) get one more point on the scoreboard.
 
#160
#160
#161
#161
ZZ13 said:
You can't play that game where you change one thing and expect everything thereafter to remain the same. Every single one of those decisions changes the game from that point forward. No one knows what would happen from that point on and its fruitless to try to speculate what would.
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No, that's not how it works. They outline the circumstances at the time of each of Jones' decisions and evaluate them accordingly. It wasn't just 1 poor decision by Jones in their opinion that significantly contributed to our Florida loss last year....they carefully and specifically make the case that it was 7.

For example, the fact that Jones didn't go for 2 with 10:19 left in the game had nothing to with how poorly Jones managed the clock on the final drive or the poor defensive strategy decisions on 4th down late in the game. Those poor decisions were made independently of one another.
 
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#162
#162
KBVol said:
No, that's not how it works. They outline the circumstances at the time of each of Jones' decisions and evaluate them accordingly. It wasn't just 1 poor decision by Jones in their opinion that significantly contributed to our Florida loss last year....they carefully and specifically make the case that it was 7.

For example, the fact that Jones didn't go for 2 with 10:19 left in the game had nothing to with how poorly Jones managed the clock on the final drive or the poor defensive strategy decisions on 4th down late in the game. Those poor decisions were made independently of one another.
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OK, I'll buy all that subjective logic (regarding the opinions as to whether a decision was poor or not). However, players making plays or not making plays pretty much is the decider in who wins and loses games. Simple as that. Lots and lots of times at the end the players didn't make plays. A simple example, we make the kick and no one cares about anything that happened beforehand.
 
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#163
#163
ZZ13 said:
OK, I'll buy all that subjective logic (regarding the opinions as to whether a decision was poor or not). However, players making plays or not making plays pretty much is the decider in who wins and loses games. Simple as that. Lots and lots of times at the end the players didn't make plays. A simple example, we make the kick and no one cares about anything that happened beforehand.
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This is true!
 
#164
#164
ZZ13 said:
OK, I'll buy all that subjective logic (regarding the opinions as to whether a decision was poor or not). However, players making plays or not making plays pretty much is the decider in who wins and loses games. Simple as that. Lots and lots of times at the end the players didn't make plays. A simple example, we make the kick and no one cares about anything that happened beforehand.
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Not disagreeing thst players have their significant roles in wins and losses. That's a given. But coaches have theirs as well. If you wanna put those bad losses all on the 18-22 year olds then go ahead...I'm not willing to do that when there's ample evidence of all the mistakes Jones made.

Do you recall the incredible amount of national attention and criticism Butch got after the Oklahoma and Florida games last year? I do. He became a punchline for a few weeks there. I recall seeing a tweet from a national sportswriter that following Sunday that referred to the New York Mets as "pulling a Butch Jones" because they lost a significant lead in the 9th inning that night.

As far no one caring what happened in the Florida game if Medley makes the desperation 55 yd fg attempt......I think the better point to make is if not for all the poor coaching decisions made by Butch earlier in the game, we'd have won fairly comfortably and the field attempt would've never been necessary.

Btw, get ready for all the questions and comments about Butch's late game management struggles again this year by the media.....they're coming.
 
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#165
#165
#1 and #6 the only ones I can definitely agree with although 2 has merit..but what it speaks to is just a lack of understanding of risk/reward on a football field..I mean, if it is obvious to you that a coach that is kicking a fg w backup fg k first ever attempt on 4th and 6 down 13 late 3rd is doing you a tremendous favor, then you don't call a to..you thank god that he is that dumb. The xp decision, strategically speaking, is an order of magnitude worse.

The fg decision vs oklahoma same thing..risk/reward.
 
#166
#166
Our D was letting us down late in games against the better teams.
So, in comes Shoop!.
Hope he can make positive changes in our D, all around.
 
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