'17 AU WDE Big Kat Bryant (UCF)

ShreveportVol

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Good to know that Pruitt can apply for sainthood after playing the recruiting game with such good motivations. Maybe UT will be rewarded by the NCAA for the philanthropic heights we evidently reached under his leadership. Not sure the Robinhood effect is in play here.
Lol you're not disputing me at all, because I've already said it isn't an act of charity on the coaches' parts, but an act of self-interest. The point there is merely that their cheating is not some heinous, harmful act and that it actually has good side effects. Also, I'm not speaking specifically about Pruitt, I am speaking about all coaches in the recruiting game as a whole.

The main point I'm trying to make is that people were acting like a coach CANT be a good leader, person, or role model if they are cheating at recruiting, and I think that's far from the truth.
 
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Vols4us

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It all depends on if the information that reached Plowman's desk was only known internally or if it originated from a source outside the university. Once the internal investigation was initiated, and the infractions stacked up too high, she had no choice without putting her job in jeopardy and the school at serious risk of devastating NCAA punishment. 50 violations if shown to be contained within the Pruitt reporting structure and quickly handled when found, may be more survivable than turning a blind eye and outside investigations turning up the issues. Won't know risk elements till some facts get out there for sure one way or the other.

My SWAG is that one parent or coach shot a poison pill letter to a UT employee outside of the Pruitt structure to get the ball rolling and the rest is what it is. It would not take but one kid not wanting to risk his reputation and viability at other schools to share an experience with an adult who would take a protective action. It could turn out to be a valid fear if the investigation shares names with the NCAA of those that did and did not come to UT that were involved in bad acts and kept their mouths shut. Time will tell, maybe.
Don't know why that is so hard to understand on here. UT admin does not exist in a vacuum without any outside forces in play. 50 violations is a lot of crap to deal with when it is exposed to outsiders as they apparently were. These aren't like a few bump violations at high schools. It appears at least some of the players went to other schools after the bad acts occurred. So, they kept their mouths shut and didn't say anything to their new coaches and teammates? Nah - not buying that at all. Cornbread blew it, was way too blatant about it all including the system he used to do it.
 

you

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I feel like this wasn't said during the argument past couple days, so here goes...

Cheating at recruiting doesnt make a coach unable to be a good role model or person. NCAA is not the Ten Commandments, their law is not a moral law, it is a business law that everybody breaks like the speed limit, and often in breaking that law, they are supporting a poor family and giving them access to both necessities and luxury that they didnt have access to before. You could argue that it is a morally good decision to provide for the kids that are being held down by an archaic rule and being denied the ability to profit off their massive success. It's kind of a national debate in fact lol.

Of course it's also in the self-interest of the coaches to pay the kids, not saying they're just pulling a Mansa Musa and raining money out of the kindness of their hearts, but the act of paying players doesnt disqualify a coach from being a good role model or good human. Recruiting is legally dirty, but that doesnt make the participants morally dirty. So I dont think @de1conley is wrong in separating those two elements.
That’s nice perspective I haven’t considered. Thanks for sharing
 

GUNTERSVOL

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Lol you're not disputing me at all, because I've already said it isn't an act of charity on the coaches' parts, but an act of self-interest. The point there is merely that their cheating is not some heinous, harmful act and that it actually has good side effects. Also, I'm not speaking specifically about Pruitt, I am speaking about all coaches in the recruiting game as a whole.

The main point I'm trying to make is that people were acting like a coach CANT be a good leader, person, or role model if they are cheating at recruiting, and I think that's far from the truth.
Too much like the “every body does it” defense. It does show a lack of character if you lower yourself to match other low character guys.

Do you think Rick Barnes is following that lead of others in BB? I don’t. We are not talking BBQ here if the McDonalds stories are close.

Pushing the envelope is one thing, putting green stuff in one is another.
 

volbeast33

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Too much like the “every body does it” defense. It does show a lack of character if you lower yourself to match other low character guys.

Do you think Rick Barnes is following that lead of others in BB? I don’t. We are not talking BBQ here if the McDonalds stories are close.

Pushing the envelope is one thing, putting green stuff in one is another.
I would not doubt at all that someone around rick Barnes program is helping to grease the wheels some..... we did it when Phil was our coach and I remember all the stuff that came out about us paying Bernard king.
 

GUNTERSVOL

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I would not doubt at all that someone around rick Barnes program is helping to grease the wheels some..... we did it when Phil was our coach and I remember all the stuff that came out about us paying Bernard king.
Which players were paid during CPF's tenure? Majors was famous for not paying Holloway. If CPF was paying players he would not have suffered the recruiting losses he did in multiple classes. Bring some backup with any accusations, and leave the everybody knows stuff at home
 

BigOrangeTrain

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Which players were paid during CPF's tenure? Majors was famous for not paying Holloway. If CPF was paying players he would not have suffered the recruiting losses he did in multiple classes. Bring some backup with any accusations, and leave the everybody knows stuff at home
Please. Miami cheated like crazy in the 80’s and was a dynasty. Nebraska was cheating under Osborne. Bowden at FSU. Cheating is a part of college football. The programs that cheat win.
 

ShreveportVol

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Too much like the “every body does it” defense. It does show a lack of character if you lower yourself to match other low character guys.

Do you think Rick Barnes is following that lead of others in BB? I don’t. We are not talking BBQ here if the McDonalds stories are close.

Pushing the envelope is one thing, putting green stuff in one is another.
I guess we have different ideas of character. I get it being low-character to break rules, but I find the rules themselves to be low-character. If there was a rule/law you thought was low-character, would you still think it was wrong to break it?

On Barnes, I think he breaks less rules than many, but I seriously doubt he doesnt break rules at all. I have heard stories from people who personally witnessed football players get impermissible benefits at a mediocre sun belt school and an FCS school, so I dont think anyone steers clear of illegality. Which would mean no one is high-character by your standards.
 
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volfaninpa

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Which players were paid during CPF's tenure? Majors was famous for not paying Holloway. If CPF was paying players he would not have suffered the recruiting losses he did in multiple classes. Bring some backup with any accusations, and leave the everybody knows stuff at home
Majors wasn't here when Condredge Holloway was.
 

volbeast33

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Which players were paid during CPF's tenure? Majors was famous for not paying Holloway. If CPF was paying players he would not have suffered the recruiting losses he did in multiple classes. Bring some backup with any accusations, and leave the everybody knows stuff at home
I have no idea about Majors and Holloway as I have not heard that story...... my personal knowledge involves a job I had in the early 90’s..... Phil was best friends with owner who I also became semi-close as well due to our shared love of UT football.... A story you may or may not recall that the owner of this store.... thunder thornton.... and another prominent booster(not sure of this persons name) rose in the limo to Jackson hole Wyoming and then onto the UCLA—— Tennessee football game which was colquitts one and only game if I remember correctly.....I don’t have specific name but there was a lot of 100 dollar handshakes...... money left in players jackets..... cars and such.....I even remember laughing when Travis Henry( if my memory is correct) had a wreck in newer model Ford Expedition..... There is no way that he or his parents afforded that car...... we know for a fact Jeremy Pruitt was paying players..... how did he lose those recruiting battles?
 
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kmkemp11

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Too much like the “every body does it” defense. It does show a lack of character if you lower yourself to match other low character guys.

Do you think Rick Barnes is following that lead of others in BB? I don’t. We are not talking BBQ here if the McDonalds stories are close.

Pushing the envelope is one thing, putting green stuff in one is another.
Your argument is circular. "Paying players is against the rules, shows low character, and any defense about the ethics is irrelevant because breaking rules makes you low character." There is no actual reason why players shouldn't be paid to play except that it would harm the tax status (and therefore bottom line) of the entity that organizes games. In almost every case, the more powerful entity exploits the less powerful entity unless they're strictly prohibited. The NCAA needs to be replaced by a proper minor league with rules that don't exploit players.
 
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GUNTERSVOL

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Your argument is circular. "Paying players is against the rules, shows low character, and any defense about the ethics is irrelevant because breaking rules makes you low character." There is no actual reason why players shouldn't be paid to play except that it would harm the tax status (and therefore bottom line) of the entity that organizes games. In almost every case, the more powerful entity exploits the less powerful entity unless they're strictly prohibited. The NCAA needs to be replaced by a proper minor league with rules that don't exploit players.
There is an established set of rules to participate in NCAA football for schools and players. It is still basically the amatuer model. You are right, force those wanting to be professional to find an alternative. Pay them. At a minimum allow students to pick a path year by year, and if they want the professional model, have schools PAY them and deduct from that the costs ALL other students are paying and then they can go get money from other sources without violation. and the school would not have to monitor that. It would require additional bookwork issuing 1099's or 1040's but what the heck. We will see how attractive that is once it becomes taxable state by state. I am sure training table costs could be calculated and housing etc.... Medical could be tricky. Prefer the current model, OK, play by the rules. They should be able to coexist on the field as they all have openly chosen their path and easily identified on their ID cards. Just like Medicare you have a deadline each year to change your plan if the kid and the school both agree. But don't further corrupt the current model.
 

miket4god

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I have no idea about Majors and Holloway as I have not heard that story...... my personal knowledge involves a job I had in the early 90’s..... Phil was best friends with owner who I also became semi-close as well due to our shared love of UT football.... A story you may or may not recall that the owner of this store.... thunder thornton.... and another prominent booster(not sure of this persons name) rose in the limo to Jackson hole Wyoming and then onto the UCLA—— Tennessee football game which was colquitts one and only game if I remember correctly.....I don’t have specific name but there was a lot of 100 dollar handshakes...... money left in players jackets..... cars and such.....I even remember laughing when Travis Henry( if my memory is correct) had a wreck in newer model Ford Expedition..... There is no way that he or his parents afforded that car...... we know for a fact Jeremy Pruitt was paying players..... how did he lose those recruiting battles?
You really think Pruitt is the only one? Why do you think he lost those battles? Why do you think he was paying players in the first place? Trying to keep up with the competition.
 
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sjt18

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I feel like this wasn't said during the argument past couple days, so here goes...

Cheating at recruiting doesnt make a coach unable to be a good role model or person. NCAA is not the Ten Commandments, their law is not a moral law, it is a business law that everybody breaks like the speed limit, and often in breaking that law, they are supporting a poor family and giving them access to both necessities and luxury that they didnt have access to before. You could argue that it is a morally good decision to provide for the kids that are being held down by an archaic rule and being denied the ability to profit off their massive success. It's kind of a national debate in fact lol.

Of course it's also in the self-interest of the coaches to pay the kids, not saying they're just pulling a Mansa Musa and raining money out of the kindness of their hearts, but the act of paying players doesnt disqualify a coach from being a good role model or good human. Recruiting is legally dirty, but that doesnt make the participants morally dirty. So I dont think @de1conley is wrong in separating those two elements.
So... stealing from the office is something "everyone" does... and if you get caught embezzling then you can still be a good role model and person, right? This is nothing like going 5 miles over the speed limit or even helping momma get a better job or giving a kid a shirt against the rules. Those things need to be stopped or regulated too... but Pruitt was WAY beyond that.

I think the NCAA should tighten up on everyone and specifically ENCOURAGE programs to self-police/correct. Covering up should earn harsher punishment than the violation. There are literally MILLIONS of current and former college students that had to live hand to mouth and do jobs they didn't want to do in hopes of a benefit later from an education. They cover the economic spectrum meaning many were every bit as poor/needy as these players. My sons joined the National Guard. Some work two or three jobs. I earned a ROTC scholarship and committed myself to 8 years of service to supplement my loans....which I paid off in full. I didn't get extra spending cash... much less the perks these guys get.


When I graduated, I didn't have long lines of boosters and donors ready to give me a job above the norm in pay and status like many of these players do often well in excess of their academic resume. If you summed their total benefits WITHIN the rules... these kids are getting $50K or more per year. Vets on the GI bill aren't getting that.

These guys are NOT getting cheated. We ALL deal with delayed gratification... and that is NOT "unfair" to anyone. Their "payday" isn't in their 4-5 years as a college athlete. It is in the years after college when those who make an effort see their opportunities explode over what they would have had without that scholarship and few years of "financial suffering".
 
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