Archaeology / Pre-History Thread

[Volunteer_Kirby]

Let's share and discuss archaeological finds and pre-history topics ITT.

Things like fossils, ancient tools, weapons, art, lost cities (Petra, Cahokia, Monte Verde), vanished civilizations (Gobekli Tepe builders, Gunung Padang builders, Varna peoples, etc), unusual finds (like the Antikythera Mechanism, The Shigir Idol, Baghdad Batteries, etc).

 

[Volunteer_Kirby]

White Sands Footprints, New Mexico

There is quite a bit of emerging evidence that the White Sands Footprints are not 20-22,000 years old but rather much younger (maybe 8-10,000 BP (Before Present). The evidence points to them coming after the last glacial maximum rather than before. In fact most finds in the area date to a maximum of 13,000BP so the 20,000 date is extremely unusual when considering other related finds in the immediate area.

Most of the evidence for the estimated carbon date of 20-22,000 years stems from the pollen & seed collected from the footprints, where a NPS (National Park Service) archaeology team dated the seeds of an aquatic grass (Ruppia cirrhosa) to 20-22,000 years old. What isn't well understood at this time is the extreme fluctuations in the radio carbon sampling due to what is called the hard water effect. Firstly, Ruppia cirrhosa aka Ditchgrass. It is essentially the tumbleweed of aquatic grasses. In seasonal inland brackish lakes, like in the White Sands region where the footprints were sampled, these seeds can form what are called "seed balls" or "lake balls". So the prints, which were found near the perimeter of the lake, contained what they think are portions of seed balls (as well as the pollinae drift from the plant in-flower).

The hard water effect from modern seed, pollen & herbarium specimens suggest fluctuations of up to 10,000 years. This is due to the plant uptaking hard minerals (i.e. very old limestone) from the water (as opposed to leaching carbon from the air). So, naturally, we get crazy results when carbon dating modern herbarium specimens and we know this is true because they've taken additional samples from nearby Salt Creek which, again, shows fluctuations up to 10,000 years for present day, recently harvested samples.

What does this mean for the White Sands footprints? Well, nobody knows for certain yet, but despite all the hype and hoopla surrounding the prints, we can say with some confidence that the evidence supporting their 20,000 radio carbon date is suspect at best.

 

[Tin Man]

Long ago, ancient humans stepped on even more ancient seed balls, squishing them into footprints in the soft soil that later hardened to produce the footprints discovered in modern times. Seems plausible.

 

[Volunteer_Kirby]

Long ago, ancient humans stepped on even more ancient seed balls, squishing them into footprints in the soft soil that later hardened to produce the footprints discovered in modern times. Seems plausible.

The seed wasn't necessarily that much older but the mineral content (limestone) the plant absorbed was. This is the 'hard water effect' that throws off carbon dating by a good 10,000 years with this particular aquatic species.

The NPS team claims the pollen from other species, like Ponderosa Pine, further confirm the date. But we are seeing 5,000 year differences in their aging of terrestrial pollen which is a BIG discrepancy. Also, pollen is incredibly tough and can persist for thousands of years after dispersal, which muddies the waters even more. So with some drift and sediment dispersal, you could, in theory, step on a 5,000 year old pollen and this would significantly impact your carbon date.

Another thing that often gets corroborated is with quartz crystal dating. They use a new method called optically stimulated luminescence which measures the age of the quartz grain by the amount of radiation damage (sun exposure) it has. However if this grain is only partially exposed, ie on a water bank, then your date will appear much, much older.

All these things combined make for some very shaky foundations in the estimated age of the prints.

 

[YankeeVol]

Breaking news, people have existed for a long time!

 

[LouderVol]

On Gunung Padang, are you considering it ~1500 years old or 9k to 20k years old?

There are some issues with the dating methodology for the older claims. they just used a soil sample from a random depth, said the organic matter in this soil is from 20k years ago, and decided the whole thing was made then. when you date even the older terrace it falls into the AD timeframe.

 

[LouderVol]

The Shigir Idol is a cool one.

really old, ~10k, wooden statue. before its discovery it was believed the hunter gathers in the area weren't developed enough to have that level of art. some have tried to link to Gobleki Tepi due to similar art styles, but I don't think its very accepted due to the distances.

 

[QuarterSawnVol]

Did you say Gobleki Teri?

“Jaime, pull up the picture of the bear being ridden by the human in Gobleki Tepi”

 

[OrangeTsar]

My biggest wish for finding things from the past would be for more ancient literature to be discovered. I saw an estimate somewhere that maybe only five percent of Roman Literature has survived.

 

[Volunteer_Kirby]

On Gunung Padang, are you considering it ~1500 years old or 9k to 20k years old?

There are some issues with the dating methodology for the older claims. they just used a soil sample from a random depth, said the organic matter in this soil is from 20k years ago, and decided the whole thing was made then. when you date even the older terrace it falls into the AD timeframe.

I haven't had the chance to deep dive Gunung Padang but given the region's political climate and lack of government funding for proper research, it may be a long time until we get real answers. I think the Indonesian side is happy to claim it's "pyramid" is 20,000BP as it is great for tourism. They are essentially using psuedo-archaeology to boost Indonesia's national identity. The amount invested in the site from '04 to '11 was massive, especially for exploring the fringe idea of an ancient pyramid existing at the site (there was no evidence that it was a pyramid). That said, we now know it's not a pyramid and the lower steppes were likely constructed from pre-existing basalt columns and the "mortar" claimed to have been found in the samples is natural, not man-made. The construction of the site was similar to Nan Madal which was constructed about 1000BP.

Pseudo-archaeologists like Graham Hancock always make grand claims to sell views and books. Hancock's "work" (if you want to call it that) is always riddled with inconsistencies and controversy. All we know is that the top steppes are artificial, ie man made, and can be accurately dated. That is the only known fact at this point, from my understanding. The "man made tunnels" are consistent with natural volcanic tunnels but may have been modified - that is interesting and worth exploring.

Also I think one of the main guys expounding the 20,000 BP date is an Indonesian geologist who was featured on Graham Hancock's TV show. Archaeology is not his area of expertise and his claims about volcanic tunnels and basalt "coursing" being man-made directly contradict what volcanologists (in peer-reviewed papers) claim are natural formations. This guy just thinks some of these sites are much, much older than claimed and people into alternative history are eating it up.

Indonesia is very interesting and has some incredible stories to tell. I think one day we find interesting structures underwater in Sundaland (the ocean was about 3-400ft lower around the ice age), so that whole pennisula was exposed between Borneo & Indonesia/Malaysia proper.

The builders of Nan Madol & Gunung Padang may have been apart of that second (or 3rd, 4th, 5th?) wave of what we now call Polynesian people who explored Eastward, built Rapa Nui (Easter Island) and eventually hit South America (Columbia). We now have confirmed DNA evidence of a Polynesian-South American connection. One of the leading theories at this point is that the Polynesians landed there about 800 years ago, took some wives, exchanged ideas, plants (Sweet Potato confirmed in Polynesia 800BP), language and then went back West to Rapa Nui (and some surrounding islands). Again, this is DNA evidence and is rooted in actual science. Very interesting stuff!

 

[Volunteer_Kirby]

The Shigir Idol is a cool one.

really old, ~10k, wooden statue. before its discovery it was believed the hunter gathers in the area weren't developed enough to have that level of art. some have tried to link to Gobleki Tepi due to similar art styles, but I don't think its very accepted due to the distances.

Yeah, definitely some archaic thinking there. Thank goodness for peat bogs! They are literal time capsules.

 

[LouderVol]

I haven't had the chance to deep dive Gunung Padang but given the region's political climate and lack of government funding for proper research, it may be a long time until we get real answers. I think the Indonesian side is happy to claim it's "pyramid" is 20,000BP as it is great for tourism. They are essentially using psuedo-archaeology to boost Indonesia's national identity. The amount invested in the site from '04 to '11 was massive, especially for exploring the fringe idea of an ancient pyramid existing at the site (there was no evidence that it was a pyramid). That said, we now know it's not a pyramid and the lower steppes were likely constructed from pre-existing basalt columns and the "mortar" claimed to have been found in the samples is natural, not man-made. The construction of the site was similar to Nan Madal which was constructed about 1000BP.

Pseudo-archaeologists like Graham Hancock always make grand claims to sell views and books. Hancock's "work" (if you want to call it that) is always riddled with inconsistencies and controversy. All we know is that the top steppes are artificial, ie man made, and can be accurately dated. That is the only known fact at this point, from my understanding. The "man made tunnels" are consistent with natural volcanic tunnels but may have been modified - that is interesting and worth exploring.

Also I think one of the main guys expounding the 20,000 BP date is an Indonesian geologist who was featured on Graham Hancock's TV show. Archaeology is not his area of expertise and his claims about volcanic tunnels and basalt "coursing" being man-made directly contradict what volcanologists (in peer-reviewed papers) claim are natural formations. This guy just thinks some of these sites are much, much older than claimed and people into alternative history are eating it up.

Indonesia is very interesting and has some incredible stories to tell. I think one day we find interesting structures underwater in Sundaland (the ocean was about 3-400ft lower around the ice age), so that whole pennisula was exposed between Borneo & Indonesia/Malaysia proper.

The builders of Nan Madol & Gunung Padang may have been apart of that second (or 3rd, 4th, 5th?) wave of what we now call Polynesian people who explored Eastward, built Rapa Nui (Easter Island) and eventually hit South America (Columbia). We now have confirmed DNA evidence of a Polynesian-South American connection. One of the leading theories at this point is that the Polynesians landed there about 800 years ago, took some wives, exchanged ideas, plants (Sweet Potato confirmed in Polynesia 800BP), language and then went back West to Rapa Nui (and some surrounding islands). Again, this is DNA evidence and is rooted in actual science. Very interesting stuff!

yeah, I was wondering about your thoughts on the Graham Hancocks of the world and if you were buying into, but I didn't want to ask that directly.

I still think its cool, and worth studying. I would like to see more on the sunken Japanese pyramids/steppes too. I haven't seen a real study say one way or the other on it.

Its one of the things that frustrates me with people like Graham Hancock, they argued a legit point, water levels were far lower, and most early settlements are going to be at a waters edge, so there is undoubtedly a bunch of stuff buried. but he turns that question into a whole history that he thinks is being hidden.

its telling to me that he doesn't put his money where his mouth is. with his money he could fund a real archaeological survey of some of these sites. Not only would he be able to prove himself, but he could still make a butt load of money writing books, and expanding on what he has started. with an actual find behind him he would expand his audience. but he isn't a true believer.

 

[Wireless1]

My biggest wish for finding things from the past would be for more ancient literature to be discovered. I saw an estimate somewhere that maybe only five percent of Roman Literature has survived.

There will probably be people 2000 years from now that wish only 5% of current literature had survived.

 

[OrangeTsar]

There will probably be people 2000 years from now that wish only 5% of current literature had survived.

Actually, with everything going digital, these is a good chance that nothing of ours survives

 

[Wireless1]

Actually, with everything going digital, these is a good chance that nothing of ours survives

True, I have an 8 track tape of the Starland Vocal Band that I have no way of listening to....... if I ever wanted to.......

 

[Volunteer_Kirby]

yeah, I was wondering about your thoughts on the Graham Hancocks of the world and if you were buying into, but I didn't want to ask that directly.

I still think its cool, and worth studying. I would like to see more on the sunken Japanese pyramids/steppes too. I haven't seen a real study say one way or the other on it.

Its one of the things that frustrates me with people like Graham Hancock, they argued a legit point, water levels were far lower, and most early settlements are going to be at a waters edge, so there is undoubtedly a bunch of stuff buried. but he turns that question into a whole history that he thinks is being hidden.

its telling to me that he doesn't put his money where his mouth is. with his money he could fund a real archaeological survey of some of these sites. Not only would he be able to prove himself, but he could still make a butt load of money writing books, and expanding on what he has started. with an actual find behind him he would expand his audience. but he isn't a true believer.

There may be trace evidence of human activity, like stone tools, in the area, but there is no indication that the columns or steps are man-made. Nothing about the shape or function of the structure says man-made either, but we do see some beautiful natural cube shelves similar to those basalt columns of Nan Madol, Iceland & Gunung Padang.

Also that shelf is way too big to be man-made. If you think straight line fissure breaks in Sandstone are somewhat unusual then take a look at Utah, Arizona, Nevada, Western Colorado. It's everywhere out there. I can't tell you how many times (as a former dry stack stone mason) I've cut sandstone along a fissure with a carbide tipped chisel or bull set and gotten nigh-perfect flat faces or 90 degree angles. Again, not uncommon when you break along natural fissures.

Heres a good example of the geology of the island. Notice the massive cliff face? Some fairly straight angles there. As far as I know, only one geologist from Japan believed this was man-made and he likely had a financial, as well as leisure interest in the "work" (paid scuba diving retreats from grant money, nice!).

 

[Volunteer_Kirby]

I think the fact that Okinawa and Japan don't recognize this as a national monument speaks volumes. If there was any inkling that it was man-made, it would be turned into a national heritage site - yet it is not.

Great tourist site, though!

 

[Volunteer_Kirby]

The Gault Assemblage (16-20,000 BP)

The Gault Site is an archaeological site near Austin, TX that contains the largest collection of Clovis (13,000BP) and pre-Clovis artifacts in America. An estimated 2 million artifacts have been excavated at the site over the last century. It contains Columbian mammoth bones (one of only 17 sites in North America), bones of the extinct American horse species, extinct camel species, a house or dwelling dating back 13,000 years, some of the earliest Paleoindian art in existence. The site is very important as it is helping to re-write our understanding of when Paleoindians settled in America and confirms that pre-Clovis cultures had settled in the area several millennia prior.

It is estimated that only 3% of the Gault Site has been excavated. The area is in a rather unique ecotone (where two distinct ecosystems combine), is seated next to a creek that opens up to a somewhat wide valley with large fluvial deposits, which is prone to flooding (as well as sand storms & the occasional tornado). These fluvial & sedimentary deposits over the past 20,000 years and have effectively buried these artifacts in a time capsule century after century. Most bedrock in the area (the Edwards Plateau) is on the surface so having fluvial deposits of 10-14ft down is quite unique for the area and also makes it a dream for archaeological study. If you were to compare fluvial deposits from say, the Mississippi Valley or Louisiana, you would have to dig down 100ft to reach a similar lithic ages. There was a study that concluded about 10 years ago that the sediments "were not mixed, and downward vertical displacement of material could not have been substantial." The dates of the site are legitimate and density of artifacts found make it one of the most important archaelogical sites in the Americas.

(Picture above, incised stone from the Gault Assemblage, considered to be some of, if not, the oldest representations of art in the Americas.)

 

[LouderVol]

There may be trace evidence of human activity, like stone tools, in the area, but there is no indication that the columns or steps are man-made. Nothing about the shape or function of the structure says man-made either, but we do see some beautiful natural cube shelves similar to those basalt columns of Nan Madol, Iceland & Gunung Padang.

Also that shelf is way too big to be man-made. If you think straight line fissure breaks in Sandstone are somewhat unusual then take a look at Utah, Arizona, Nevada, Western Colorado. It's everywhere out there. I can't tell you how many times (as a former dry stack stone mason) I've cut sandstone along a fissure with a carbide tipped chisel or bull set and gotten nigh-perfect flat faces or 90 degree angles. Again, not uncommon when you break along natural fissures.

Heres a good example of the geology of the island. Notice the massive cliff face? Some fairly straight angles there. As far as I know, only one geologist from Japan believed this was man-made and he likely had a financial, as well as leisure interest in the "work" (paid scuba diving retreats from grant money, nice!).

thanks for this. I hadn't seen much of anything on it.