'19 AL WR George Pickens (UGA signee)

butchna

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Without a doubt. The playing field was "level" in cycling, all were on PEDs. Baseball was different, not everyone was doing it.
For me, Bonds boils down to that he’s a no doubt HOF without the juice...but he doesn’t have the offensive records. He traded his spot in Cooperstown for HR related records.
 

MadWorld

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Okay, but there were still unprecedented times being set in the Tour de France. Unprecedented levels of home runs in baseball.
I agree with TdF statement. But if you weren't doping, you were getting dropped on every climb. TdF has BIG money $$ payouts for each yellow, green, polka jersey, as well as each stage winner. Hate that Lance got targeted like he did, because it was more the "norm" during those years. It's a fascinating sport to watch.
 

Rishvol

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I agree with TdF statement. But if you weren't doping, you were getting dropped on every climb. TdF has BIG money $$ payouts for each yellow, green, polka jersey, as well as each stage winner. Hate that Lance got targeted like he did, because it was more the "norm" during those years. It's a fascinating sport to watch.
He was an easy target with his testicular cancer. They knew he'd be on some type of testosterone so it was an easy scapegoat for the sport of cycling
 

Atlanta917

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I'm not saying that recruits never get paid, but I don't think it's as prevalent as you'd think from message board chatter. Otherwise, there would be hard evidence coming to light every year. Even if the schools/boosters were very careful, recruits and their families are not very experienced at hiding a financial windfall. My guess is that it's more common for players to get smaller amounts of money after they're in school than for a recruit or their parents to get a huge sum for signing.

As for the SEC, there are other reasons to account for top signing classes than just attributing it to rampant cheating. Southern states have more talent and high school football is losing popularity faster in the rest of the country. The SEC has a geographic advantage and even top recruits from elsewhere want to play against top talent. That has become more apparent since the old bowl game system was abandoned, because national champions have to play a top team (now two top teams) without regard to bowl conference tie-ins. That's why the SEC went on a championship run after the advent of the BCS and now playoffs.

If UGA or any other team is blatantly cheating, they'll eventually get caught. Going into probably the most successful high school program in a football rabid state like Alabama and paying a 5 star player, stealing him away from the home state schools, would be a high risk strategy, probably just plain dumb. If someone has evidence of that I'm sure it will come out in time, but until then I'm skeptical that a good run of recruiting automatically equals blatant cheating. If Tennessee gets a major recruiting boost over the next few seasons (which seems likely) and your rivals start talking about impending NCAA doom, I'm sure you'll take it with a grain of salt too.
No offense, but it seems like your'e taking this a bit hard. It's natural for fans of other teams, especially rivals, to joke around about the bagman after a big flip on signing day. If anything you should take it as a complement about the recruiting abilities of your school. The only thing more common than the bagman trope is the "we never wanted him anyway" that comes after a recruit flips or signs with another school. In today's college football it's very likely every school has a bagman and no one is playing fair. IMO it'll only get worse with new "free agent" transferring and eventually colleges will have to pay kids to eliminate the bagman or possibly compete with an NFL developmental league.
 

Mike4Vols

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For me, Bonds boils down to that he’s a no doubt HOF without the juice...but he doesn’t have the offensive records. He traded his spot in Cooperstown for HR related records.
Well said. I believe this applies to many players of that generation.

You traded fame and money for the Hall. Enjoy your retirement.
 

Atlanta917

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Well said. I believe this applies to many players of that generation.

You traded fame and money for the Hall. Enjoy your retirement.
My brother's teammate was drafted by the Braves and played minor league baseball with them for a while before retiring to become a coach. According to him most baseball players of the 90's and 2000's were juicing. Not to mention for every pro doing it there's a hundred minor league players doing it with hopes of making the show.
 

jackcrevol

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For me, Bonds boils down to that he’s a no doubt HOF without the juice...but he doesn’t have the offensive records. He traded his spot in Cooperstown for HR related records.
Bonds was a freakish athlete, generated unreal bat speed. but was hit a lot of HR's in a hitter's park - and he cheated.

I'll trade Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa for one of greatest hitters, fielders, and baserunners of our era...Pete Rose. It's a joke. 4K hits during the pre juice era.

Further, as a switch hitter i always appreciated how good Larry Wayne and Mickey Mantle were, and how difficult it is to do. Fav players.
 

butchna

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My brother's teammate was drafted by the Braves and played minor league baseball with them for a while before retiring to become a coach. According to him most baseball players of the 90's and 2000's were juicing. Not to mention for every pro doing it there's a hundred minor league players doing it with hopes of making the show.
But you couldn’t prove that without a testing program...and the Player’s Union wouldn’t allow that to even be whispered about during labor negotiations. Until Jose Cansceco’s book got Congress involved AND 80% of anonymous test samples came up positive (even with advanced knowledge of the test date), did testing root out the blatant cheaters. Without that Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro and Clemens are easily in and Manny Ramirez most likely. I’m good with them being excluded.
 

Nashvegas31

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My brother's teammate was drafted by the Braves and played minor league baseball with them for a while before retiring to become a coach. According to him most baseball players of the 90's and 2000's were juicing. Not to mention for every pro doing it there's a hundred minor league players doing it with hopes of making the show.
Yep there was no hiding it. It was widespread usage. You had to supply yourself but could take to Team doctors and they would tell you the safe amount of dosage to use to pass test. Most pitchers would use it mainly for lower body strength so nobody would ever question them aka roger Clemens
 

jackcrevol

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But you couldn’t prove that without a testing program...and the Player’s Union wouldn’t allow that to even be whispered about during labor negotiations. Until Jose Cansceco’s book got Congress involved AND 80% of anonymous test samples came up positive (even with advanced knowledge of the test date), did testing root out the blatant cheaters. Without that Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro and Clemens are easily in and Manny Ramirez most likely. I’m good with them being excluded.
McGwire was a machine before but, after he looked like a cartoom character. It was a lot of fun though.
 
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Bonds was a freakish athlete, generated unreal bat speed. but was hit a lot of HR's in a hitter's park - and he cheated.

I'll trade Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa for one of greatest hitters, fielders, and baserunners of our era...Pete Rose. It's a joke. 4K hits during the pre juice era.

Further, as a switch hitter i always appreciated how good Larry Wayne and Mickey Mantle were, and how difficult it is to do. Fav players.
The term “freak athlete” gets thrown around a lot these days.

Mickey Mantle.

That man was truly something else. To be that fast, and that skilled, with such power (from both sides)...

And to think he played his whole career hurt, and hung over. Remarkable.
 

jackcrevol

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The term “freak athlete” gets thrown around a lot these days.

Mickey Mantle.

That man was truly something else. To be that fast, and that skilled, with such power (from both sides)...

And to think he played his whole career hurt, and hung over. Remarkable.
Man, Bonds had over 500 career stolen bases, .298 career batting avg and over 3000 career hits. He would have had that PED's or no. Did you watch him play outfield? 8X GG winner. I'm not a BB fan but...that alone is Cooperstown worthy for most.
 
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Man, Bonds had over 500 career stolen bases, .298 career batting avg and over 3000 career hits. He would have had that PED's or no. Did you watch him play outfield? 8X GG winner. I'm not a BB fan but...that alone is Cooperstown worthy for most.
I wasn’t questioning your usage of the term with regards to Bonds. He was amazing.

Was just saying in general that term gets thrown around a lot these days.
 

Ulysees E. McGill

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But you couldn’t prove that without a testing program...and the Player’s Union wouldn’t allow that to even be whispered about during labor negotiations. Until Jose Cansceco’s book got Congress involved AND 80% of anonymous test samples came up positive (even with advanced knowledge of the test date), did testing root out the blatant cheaters. Without that Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro and Clemens are easily in and Manny Ramirez most likely. I’m good with them being excluded.
I miss the roid era...watching all those massive home runs was fun.
 

Geaux_Vols

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The interesting thing about Armstrong and the Tour was that testing for PEDs is actually pretty stringent, so they were resorting to doping the blood to carry more oxygen and increase the cyclists VO2 levels. Cyclist were sleeping in these hyperbaric chambers to increase lung capacity, and that’s what established the edge. Some real mad scientist stuff going on.
 

butchna

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Man, Bonds had over 500 career stolen bases, .298 career batting avg and over 3000 career hits. He would have had that PED's or no. Did you watch him play outfield? 8X GG winner. I'm not a BB fan but...that alone is Cooperstown worthy for most.
That ALONE is what he should’ve stuck with. Saw McGwire and Sosa mocking the sanctity of the game and doubled their efforts by doubling his home run production at an age that they DECREASE when you’re not cheating...like Griffey Jr’s career. Now Griff’s in Cooperstown and Bonds joins McGwire and Sosa in their own club.
 

butchna

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I miss the roid era...watching all those massive home runs was fun.
It was fun that season McGwire and Sosa duked it out. When Barry head swole 3X it’s normal size and he broke the season HR record, it wasn’t the same imo. When he broke the all-time mark, it seemed there was a national discomfort for such a historic event.
 

jackcrevol

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That ALONE is what he should’ve stuck with. Saw McGwire and Sosa mocking the sanctity of the game and doubled their efforts by doubling his home run production at an age that they DECREASE when you’re not cheating...like Griffey Jr’s career. Now Griff’s in Cooperstown and Bonds joins McGwire and Sosa in their own club.
i call the club, left out.
 

Atlanta917

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Yep there was no hiding it. It was widespread usage. You had to supply yourself but could take to Team doctors and they would tell you the safe amount of dosage to use to pass test. Most pitchers would use it mainly for lower body strength so nobody would ever question them aka roger Clemens
Ya, he always names a ton of former players who juiced. It’s cool that he’s passionate about it, but that’s literally the only thing he ever talks about when I see him lol.
 

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