4 years under Mahoney

#51
#51
ptcarter said:
Well said. Gave a like for that.

Butch has described Debord as a mentor. He's probably got similar feelings about others on the staff. It may take a little nudge from above, or, maybe in other terms - let the new AD be the bad guy. Good cop, bad cop.
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Im sure he does. But its on him to identify what is broke and even what is not that can be better and make those changes. If he's not doing that, he doesn't need to be here.

To me the AD is there to aid him anyway he can with the resources he needs to fix it.
 
#52
#52
KBVol said:
Make the case for Shoop's performance this year then. Of course you're gonna fall back on injuries.....keep in mind that even Brent Hubbs called the injuries excuse this year as an explanation for the defensive performance under Shoop a "cop out". But go ahead, let's hear it......
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Shoop has a history of success and is held in pretty high regard by his colleagues and players. This was a bad year. I do think that injuries and staff were factors.
The exception is rarely the rule.

I think most of us would rather not be judged by that haircut, "mustache" and sweater vest we sported that one year in high school. Why not show some compassion for this equally embarrassing anomaly.

Shoop is better than this defense showed. His body of work should allow for another year to prove himself.
 
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#53
#53
sjt18 said:
Unless the scheme changes, there's really not much point in changing offensive staff.
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And, as we both know, as long as Jones is here, nothing about his offensive scheme and system is changing.
 
#55
#55
VOL-uh-tile said:
That's the thing. That sounds like it definitely has something to do with it, but it doesn't explain everything I've been seeing. I'm now asking if this has been the case the entire time Butch/Mahoney has been here, and for some reason there has been perceived improvement on the OL when we put in inexperienced players. You could even make the case that CH and JJ have played worse this year than last.
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I dont know about the improvement or the perception. Since SC ...starting with tech ...they have kept 6 blockers, They sometime have 7 blockers by way of an H back or TE. The H back blocks like a FB or slips out on a pass pattern. The TE blocks or slips out on a pattern. They have been actually run blocking ( firing out and attacking the defenders ) . This is where the perceived improvement is . They are keeping enough blockers to handle the defense, and they are attacking the defense with blockers rather than passively finesse zone blocking. That is where the perception of improvement is. The scheme has handicapped the O line and RBs until they made schematic changes. It has ade them look bad. It is an I style ...but they have not put Dobbs under center. This typically makes an inaccurate passer worse.

I dont know if they are committed to this schematic shift or if it is a reaction to Hurds departure , maybe trying to possess the ball more to keep the D off the field.

The scheme as it was will not work unless you have a a true west coast passer ...but Joe Montana's arent growing on trees....if they were every team would do it.
 
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#56
#56
It comes down to this. Football is won or lost in the trenches. Everything else that happens depends on the bulldozers winning the battle. Whatever it takes, we need to get it fixed.
 
#59
#59
The same reason out qb couldn't make simple passes after 4 years, or read defenses. The same reason we used the wrong running back for so long. The same reason our strength and conditioning was not a top priority. The same reason our coach has no idea when to go for two. Or when a 58 yard field goal is just stupid. Or when it's 3rd and 8 you call a 1 yard pass every time, that or qb struggles to make. Our coach has always put a gameplan together and preached to players and staff if we stick to this plan we will win. He has never made in game decisions and when he's forced to adjust he is lost. No experience at it. The best coaching staff in America just simply has no clue what they are doing. What's worse butch has no clue how to fix it. Look at Shoops defense no matter where he's been it has been elite. Until he meets Lyle Jones with the most talent Shoops has ever seen on one team. Wamooo butch makes it look like Shoops has never coached a d before. The biggest sign we are In deep poo is our coach never ever accepts resposability period. Cincinnati's had to here inch x inch. We are buried brick by brick.
 
#60
#60
majic73 said:
Most of the year ( until after the titanic failure at scar ) we ran a passive zone blocking system. That where the Olinemen entered their zone and picked up the first man in their zone and engaged. We ran alot of zone reads ( not the running kind ) where the QB could pull the ball and pass ...after it lingered in the RBs gut for a second .

So the offensive line did not know if it was run or pass ...so in their zone they just kind of neutral blocked ..not really pass and not really run.

Here is where the issue was. Dobbs is no consistent at intermediate passes . Defenses rarely committed much to the intermediate passes, they committed to the box. So you had 6 or 7 guys in the box being blocked by 5 guys that really were not attacking but just getting in someones way . Those extra bodies in the box allowed defenses to over load the box.

Alot of people dont get this ....but our passing system is a layered west coast tree out of the spread. As good of a runner as Dobbs was ...he was not this kind of QB. This is a 'pass to run' spread. Meaning the passing game has to click ...before the running game clicks. The offensive design would be awesome if you had a quick release 60% passer ...but we didnt

So after it came unraveled at SC . They started keeping a 6th blocker. They started using an H back as a blocker , fullback and sometimes TE . They started run blocking and pass blocking. The whole system was changed during the tech game . The passing tree was simplified using a bunch of over under type of patterens rather than layered reads. It was effective all the way until the end. The offensive line seemed to do much better .

Now to ask you ( and whoever else ) was it really the players and o line coaches fault ...or the stupid system that was terrible for the skill sets of the players ? Should we not have featured power running and adequate blocking the entire season and not put linemen in bad positions and mis matches the entire season ?
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Great post. I haven't posted much since the Vandy game, but I commented to this among my peers---the fact that this change was made AFTER Hurd left was mindbogglingly.

I made the following observation the very first year Butch arrived. You could tell he was trying to run "his system" with Dooley's guys; and, I recognized it as a tremendous gamble that could come back to bite him in the @ss.

Great coaches build systems around what they have while they recruit to implement what they want. Without mentioning names, one can look across the most successful programs and see examples of such. I was hoping beyond all hope that my fears of failure were wrong and that our boys would finally win the east this year. Well, so much for hope.
 
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#61
#61
OP is 100% correct. If you think the management of our O-Line and the coaching our O-Line has received is acceptable........You should probably stop watching football.
 
#62
#62
As far as Shoop goes, let's not forget he's working with the last DC's assistants. Who knows if he will want to make any changes this year or not. Like most of you, I agree Martinez needs to go, but, only the HC and DC know that, and maybe the OC.
 
#63
#63
Here's something to think about, Shoop spent 10 years coaching DBs. At what point would a DC with some pride in his performance get involved with that group? I'm starting to think this guy was just flat out overrated.

Prior to Franklin plucking him from obscurity, for 20 years he just hopped from one Ivy League/FCS school to another
 
#64
#64
It's true that the OL needs to develop the cohesion required by playing together but for some reason can't get on the same page with any consistency. The same holds true for the back 7 on defense. The more they play together the better they should gel in terms of chemistry. I'm for giving Shoop some time but not Martinez. He's been here long enough to demonstrate that our DB's aren't developing properly. I think of myself as a loyal fan and want to persevere and would rather not be in on these types of discussions but if UT is gonna contend they have to develop talent on the OLine and at DB in rapid fashion. I think almost everyone else feels much the same as I.
 
#65
#65
knoxvol16 said:
Great post. I haven't posted much since the Vandy game, but I commented to this among my peers---the fact that this change was made AFTER Hurd left was mindbogglingly.

I made the following observation the very first year Butch arrived. You could tell he was trying to run "his system" with Dooley's guys; and, I recognized it as a tremendous gamble that could come back to bite him in the @ss.

Great coaches build systems around what they have while they recruit to implement what they want. Without mentioning names, one can look across the most successful programs and see examples of such. I was hoping beyond all hope that my fears of failure were wrong and that our boys would finally win the east this year. Well, so much for hope.
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agreed . I think Hurd would have been an awesome power back. Not sure why they wouldn't make the changes before he left. I know from people within the program , there is a ton of pressure from some of the players to do things differently .

I like what his system could be with the right passer, but I believe that a team must possess the ball and have the ability to power run ..it all cant be finesse. The defenses in the SEC are big and fast , there are going to be games where you run right at them . Everyone should not that Sabans teams will line up and pound you and then spread you out when they need to
 
#66
#66
majic73 said:
Most of the year ( until after the titanic failure at scar ) we ran a passive zone blocking system. That where the Olinemen entered their zone and picked up the first man in their zone and engaged. We ran alot of zone reads ( not the running kind ) where the QB could pull the ball and pass ...after it lingered in the RBs gut for a second .

So the offensive line did not know if it was run or pass ...so in their zone they just kind of neutral blocked ..not really pass and not really run.

Here is where the issue was. Dobbs is no consistent at intermediate passes . Defenses rarely committed much to the intermediate passes, they committed to the box. So you had 6 or 7 guys in the box being blocked by 5 guys that really were not attacking but just getting in someones way . Those extra bodies in the box allowed defenses to over load the box.

Alot of people dont get this ....but our passing system is a layered west coast tree out of the spread. As good of a runner as Dobbs was ...he was not this kind of QB. This is a 'pass to run' spread. Meaning the passing game has to click ...before the running game clicks. The offensive design would be awesome if you had a quick release 60% passer ...but we didnt

So after it came unraveled at SC . They started keeping a 6th blocker. They started using an H back as a blocker , fullback and sometimes TE . They started run blocking and pass blocking. The whole system was changed during the tech game . The passing tree was simplified using a bunch of over under type of patterens rather than layered reads. It was effective all the way until the end. The offensive line seemed to do much better .

Now to ask you ( and whoever else ) was it really the players and o line coaches fault ...or the stupid system that was terrible for the skill sets of the players ? Should we not have featured power running and adequate blocking the entire season and not put linemen in bad positions and mis matches the entire season ?
Click to expand...

The puzzling thing was our OL was serviceable last year, gained a year of experience, everybody back but our LT, and was physical. This year we should have been much improved but came out and got whooped week in and week out. Same coach same OL but one, what the %$#@ happened?!?!
 
#67
#67
Remy said:
The puzzling thing was our OL was serviceable last year, gained a year of experience, everybody back but our LT, and was physical. This year we should have been much improved but came out and got whooped week in and week out. Same coach same OL but one, what the %$#@ happened?!?!
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They didn't keep enough blockers. They kept 5 . The defenses would have 6 or 7 in the box. Sometimes we had receivers running wide open . Dobbs routinely held the ball far too long

When they made the scheme changes...6 to 7 blockers ...they looked like a good unit and the running game looked much better when blocked with power concepts

Up until Tech ...we ran a terrible scheme for our personnel type
 
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