4-2-5 Base Defense

[Teeman]

Let me first say, I am not a coach or former player. My football knowledge is VERY limited. That is why I am asking for some insight. I know the formation depends on the opponent, situation, and personnel, but I don't care much for it as a base defense. Especially considering we are going to face some pretty good running teams this year. I just want to hear some opinions from some of you who do have knowledge and experience running and/or playing in different defensive formations.

 

[K-town Vol Fan]

Shoop has said we will be running more base 4-3 this year. He said we were basically running so much 4-2-5 because we were so thin at LB.

 

[vtvol98]

Shoop has said we will be running more base 4-3 this year. He said we were basically running so much 4-2-5 because we were so thin at LB.

What has changed?

 

[jctenn1]

not a great fan of 4-2-5 looks more like a nickel defense to me..The base 4-3 is much better in my opinion and you can run a lot of defensive schemes out of it with blitz packages and spy defense..not a great fan of the 3-4 either for us..I remember the nightmare from that experiment...so I hope we do run more 4-3 base this year..I think we are built more for that...GBO

 

[wtmvol]

What has changed?

Well, we do have Austin Smith back at LB, and Sapp supposedly healthy. McDowell should be better. To your point, still not exactly a position of strength for us, but considering JRM basically didn't play last year, I think we look to at least be a little stronger there this season.

 

[PACKERVOL]

Well, we do have Austin Smith back at LB, and Sapp supposedly healthy. McDowell should be better. To your point, still not exactly a position of strength for us, but considering JRM basically didn't play last year, I think we look to at least be a little stronger there this season.

I agree, and we need to stay much healthier this year, across the entire defense.

 

[sjt18]

Let me first say, I am not a coach or former player. My football knowledge is VERY limited. That is why I am asking for some insight. I know the formation depends on the opponent, situation, and personnel, but I don't care much for it as a base defense. Especially considering we are going to face some pretty good running teams this year. I just want to hear some opinions from some of you who do have knowledge and experience running and/or playing in different defensive formations.

Jancek and Jones agreed to recruit to and run the 4-2-5 when they arrived at UT. It isn't as dramatic as the difference between the 3-4 and the 4-3 but there is a difference in the types of athletes you recruit. I think they've spent a year trying to prepare some guys but UT really didn't have an ideal "spur" for Shoops version of the 4-3. A "spur" is a hybrid S/LB. That player gives you some ability to cover underneath but is stronger against the run than a nickel. You'll typically see them play closer to the LOS also.

You could think of it this way. A nickel is a hybrid of a S and a CB. A spur is a hybrid of a S and LB. In the 3-4, the Jack is a hybrid DE and LB.

All of these innovations are an effort to keep on set of personnel on the field as much as possible with multiple spread offenses.

 

[jakez4ut]

Let me first say, I am not a coach or former player. My football knowledge is VERY limited. That is why I am asking for some insight. I know the formation depends on the opponent, situation, and personnel, but I don't care much for it as a base defense. Especially considering we are going to face some pretty good running teams this year. I just want to hear some opinions from some of you who do have knowledge and experience running and/or playing in different defensive formations.

well, last year, it was need based...just didn't have the LB's to run a 4-3, so we ran nickel pretty much all season.

this season, should see more 4-3, but i'm not convinced all our LB woes are solved. as STJ pointed out, it's really all about being able to adjust to the offensive personnel w/as few changes as possible. be it a spur or whatever....i think this year we'll still see a lot of that, if for no other reason than situational football, and just to rotate guys regularly.

but Shoop's base defenses have always been 4-3, and if given the option, i'm sure that's what he's prefer to run. personnel/depth wise, we just aren't quite there.

 

[sjt18]

The caveat to all of this... is that UT has at least 4 safeties who deserve to be on the field. I believe USCe's Spur generally weighed around 215 during their heydays under Spurrier.

 

[Fijivol72]

Hate the 4-2-5!

 

[pimo1]

well, last year, it was need based...just didn't have the LB's to run a 4-3, so we ran nickel pretty much all season.

this season, should see more 4-3, but i'm not convinced all our LB woes are solved. as STJ pointed out, it's really all about being able to adjust to the offensive personnel w/as few changes as possible. be it a spur or whatever....i think this year we'll still see a lot of that, if for no other reason than situational football, and just to rotate guys regularly.

but Shoop's base defenses have always been 4-3, and if given the option, i'm sure that's what he's prefer to run. personnel/depth wise, we just aren't quite there.

last year it was not just Need based though it ad an impact. We would have played more 43 than we did if healthy but most of our opponents require a 42 defense because the spread type offense has become more prevalent not only in CFB in general but the SEC.

Look at most depth charts and their starters list a 3rd wideout not a fullback..would you rather have a linebacker or a corner on a teams slot receiver? Sorry guys if your opponent lines up 3 wide and you stick to a 43 prepare for the birth of the next wes welker.

The difference between a nickel and 4-2 is you have more run stopping because instead of swapping a linebacker for a pure coverage guy (usually a corner) in a 4-2-5 you swap for a guy that is mostly a run stopper who can also cover well (free safety type) a 4-2-5 is a scheme nickel is a sub package..

 

[ATLVols]

Jancek and Jones agreed to recruit to and run the 4-2-5 when they arrived at UT. It isn't as dramatic as the difference between the 3-4 and the 4-3 but there is a difference in the types of athletes you recruit. I think they've spent a year trying to prepare some guys but UT really didn't have an ideal "spur" for Shoops version of the 4-3. A "spur" is a hybrid S/LB. That player gives you some ability to cover underneath but is stronger against the run than a nickel. You'll typically see them play closer to the LOS also.

You could think of it this way. A nickel is a hybrid of a S and a CB. A spur is a hybrid of a S and LB. In the 3-4, the Jack is a hybrid DE and LB.

All of these innovations are an effort to keep on set of personnel on the field as much as possible with multiple spread offenses.

Seems like Todd Kelly would be a great Spur candidate.

 

[DaUndergroundMan]

Jancek and Jones agreed to recruit to and run the 4-2-5 when they arrived at UT. It isn't as dramatic as the difference between the 3-4 and the 4-3 but there is a difference in the types of athletes you recruit. I think they've spent a year trying to prepare some guys but UT really didn't have an ideal "spur" for Shoops version of the 4-3. A "spur" is a hybrid S/LB. That player gives you some ability to cover underneath but is stronger against the run than a nickel. You'll typically see them play closer to the LOS also.

You could think of it this way. A nickel is a hybrid of a S and a CB. A spur is a hybrid of a S and LB. In the 3-4, the Jack is a hybrid DE and LB.

All of these innovations are an effort to keep on set of personnel on the field as much as possible with multiple spread offenses.

Wouldnt TKjr fit the concept of a spur? Not to mention that would free up a safety position for Warrior.

I heard mention that gaulden would essentially fill that role, but as more of a nickel.

I guess i just dont understand why TKjr is not an ideal spur for shoops defense

 

[pimo1]

The caveat to all of this... is that UT has at least 4 safeties who deserve to be on the field. I believe USCe's Spur generally weighed around 215 during their heydays under Spurrier.

that is very interesting to me also.. because in a 4-2-5 one would expect someone like TKJr, Warrior, Berry in that "spur" spot but it feels like they taker it to another level and are looking for the CB/LB hybrid over the s/LB hybrid meaning man coverage skills and good run stopping whereas by default most safeties spend way more time in zone.

Better said they are looking for the Rod Woodson instead of the Charles Woodson.

 

[46yrvol]

The 4-2-5 seemed to only work when you have a healthy Jalen Reeves-Mayben, side line to side line tackling machine.

 

[amillz]

I'd like to see a 4-2-5 base with 3 of our Safetys since it is a strength of our team.

Kongbo
Vickers
Mckenzie
Phillips

Bituli
Dkjr

Martin
Gaulden/Wiggins

Abernathy
Warrior
Kelly (Put him closer to LOS)

 

[jakez4ut]

last year it was not just Need based though it ad an impact. We would have played more 43 than we did if healthy but most of our opponents require a 42 defense because the spread type offense has become more prevalent not only in CFB in general but the SEC.

Look at most depth charts and their starters list a 3rd wideout not a fullback..would you rather have a linebacker or a corner on a teams slot receiver? Sorry guys if your opponent lines up 3 wide and you stick to a 43 prepare for the birth of the next wes welker.

The difference between a nickel and 4-2 is you have more run stopping because instead of swapping a linebacker for a pure coverage guy (usually a corner) in a 4-2-5 you swap for a guy that is mostly a run stopper who can also cover well (free safety type) a 4-2-5 is a scheme nickel is a sub package..

i understand the difference, and i understand that situationally, nickel is called for, as you described above. you are allowed to substitute players given personnel changes made by the offense.

and the original point was on the base defense. and in Shoop's last two stops, his base was a 4-3, not 4-2-5. did he run nickel? sure, everyone does at times, when situation calls for it. can it change game to game based on scheme or personnel being faced? sure.

but as a base defense, we didn't have the depth or #'s at LB to run a 4-3, and that's the primary reason we didn't see more of it...even when situation, personnel and scheme would have called for it.

i suspect we'll see more 43 this year because you have a little more depth across the board. but i won't be surprised one bit to see a good bit of nickel, for all the reasons stated above.

 

[sjt18]

Wouldnt TKjr fit the concept of a spur? Not to mention that would free up a safety position for Warrior.

I heard mention that gaulden would essentially fill that role, but as more of a nickel.

I guess i just dont understand why TKjr is not an ideal spur for shoops defense

I have no insider info but am pretty observant and try to associate patterns both current and past.

IMHO, you will probably see any or all of the safeties play that spur role some. It may be the strongest position group on the team.

Ideally though, you get a guy who is more LB than TK. He's a safety. He's a pretty good safety. If he were a LB... they probably would have moved him already because UT has been hurting for LB's since early last year.

 

[sjt18]

last year it was not just Need based though it ad an impact. We would have played more 43 than we did if healthy but most of our opponents require a 42 defense because the spread type offense has become more prevalent not only in CFB in general but the SEC.

Look at most depth charts and their starters list a 3rd wideout not a fullback..would you rather have a linebacker or a corner on a teams slot receiver? Sorry guys if your opponent lines up 3 wide and you stick to a 43 prepare for the birth of the next wes welker.

The difference between a nickel and 4-2 is you have more run stopping because instead of swapping a linebacker for a pure coverage guy (usually a corner) in a 4-2-5 you swap for a guy that is mostly a run stopper who can also cover well (free safety type) a 4-2-5 is a scheme nickel is a sub package..

This is the genius of the 4-3 with a spur like Shoop prefers. With that spur, you get a guy who can defend the edge and tackle like an SEC LB but still cover underneath. The failure of the 4-2-5 is that nickels are seldom big enough or physical enough to take on TE's or even OL's then tackle 220 pound RB's. UT had a lot of issues at LB and eventually on the DL... but I believe the lack of a true spur hurt the run D as much as anything.

 

[DaUndergroundMan]

I have no insider info but am pretty observant and try to associate patterns both current and past.

IMHO, you will probably see any or all of the safeties play that spur role some. It may be the strongest position group on the team.

Ideally though, you get a guy who is more LB than TK. He's a safety. He's a pretty good safety. If he were a LB... they probably would have moved him already because UT has been hurting for LB's since early last year.

Good points. Thanks for the response. It seems like gaulden has more aggressive, hard hitting tendencies, even if he is a bit lighter than TKjr. I remember him having some success blitzing last year. By the the same token an aggressive hitter sometimes can overpursue, or find himself out of position in zOne. This may be why gaulden has never quite fit in at safety, and why TKjr is a good fit there.

And thats just my guess.

 

[Jax_Vol]

What has changed?

Healthy Kirkland.

 

[HuntlandVolinColo]

As good as our Safeties are, we should be running a 4-1-6!

 

[HuntlandVolinColo]

Healthy Kirkland.

and Bituli/Ignont.

Healthy McDowell too. Not sure what his ceiling is but it is probably higher than many VolNation posters realize.

 

[Darth_Shiveman]

Let me first say, I am not a coach or former player. My football knowledge is VERY limited. That is why I am asking for some insight. I know the formation depends on the opponent, situation, and personnel, but I don't care much for it as a base defense. Especially considering we are going to face some pretty good running teams this year. I just want to hear some opinions from some of you who do have knowledge and experience running and/or playing in different defensive formations.

It's not that the 4-2-5 is our base defense, per se. Our base is still a 4-3.


But when teams put 3 or 4 WRs on the field as much as they do nowadays, you can't just trot out 3 LBs all the time and expect the offense not to find a mismatch between a WR and a LB.

 

[appyvol]

It's not that the 4-2-5 is our base defense, per se. Our base is still a 4-3.


But when teams put 3 or 4 WRs on the field as much as they do nowadays, you can't just trot out 3 LBs all the time and expect the offense not to find a mismatch between a WR and a LB.

This.