2 most rational outcomes

#26
#26
jamesthesame said:
I like Butch. I think his offensive scheme is lacking. With that said, I hope he makes necessary adjustments this year.

If Butch goes 10-3 this year, is that really something he should be fired over?
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I think the answer to your question is too simplistic, the bottom line is not that 10-3 is bad......actually that is fine for most teams outside the SEC. This was suppose to be his best team and they have played inconsistently all year, were they lucky?........I would say yes. the biggest changes needing to be done is Butch's attitude toward what is glaringly apparent, the offense is woefully underachieving and the intensity of the OL reminds me of Ferris Buller...........absent. If these young men can't get up to the line a play like they own a pair........then move over and let a freshman try. I would rather lose with a undersized player giving his all, than a 6'5" 315lb wuss that can't remember his blocking assignment and allow the WORST DL in the SEC walk all over them. The OL has to have an attitude and determined will to bring a bad day to the DL, I don't see this is most of the players......Jack Jones has this attitude, but his buddies do not.
 
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#28
#28
gr82batnvol said:
I get that but do you know how many millions of dollars a team loses when they are subpar? It's just not an accurate statement.
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We are still filling the stands on gamedays, and they are still getting SEC network paychecks. With the Neyland renovation project starting, there is no way Butch goes anywhere before 2018 unless he commits a fireable offense.
 
#29
#29
BeardedVol said:
We are still filling the stands on gamedays, and they are still getting SEC network paychecks. With the Neyland renovation project starting, there is no way Butch goes anywhere before 2018 unless he commits a fireable offense.
Click to expand...

Okay, if all things are equal and he has a mediocre season this year and next, remember what I said. I think you are speculating.
 
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#31
#31
Only outcome is more of the same. This is who we will be, who we are, and that's it. We are not going to be a powerhouse, we will not win the SECE every year, and we will be lucky, and to some on here more than content, to reach a SEC championship game now and again.

We are an average to barely above average program and have been for over a decade.....we have an amazing history, and unfortunately, that is just it, history.
 
#32
#32
IndianapolisVol said:
1. Butch takes control of the offense/play calling, puts his money where his mouth is, salvages 10-3 with a convincing bowl win.

Honestly this is his only shot to win back the fan base (and the team?) after this past 72 hours. It will tell us a lot if any of our underclassman (Excluding Barnett) stay for a senior year and if JRM explores additional eligibility.

2. Butch doesn't get the job done and Hart or a new AD/(AD in waiting?) goes another route and finally hires a staff that can take us back to the 1996-2007 level that we had once grown so accustomed to. That would take a strong recruiter AND a strong game day coach.

Would you all be mad if Les Miles came and Peyton was hired as offensive coordinator? What about if Chavis came back to coach the defense? If the AD put the stadium project on hold until Butch was paid off and opened their wallet and had 3-5 high level boosters supplement, we could REALLY have the best staff in America.

So, if it is scenario 2, who are some names you want on the staff? Aside from Peyton, Gruden, etc...

Tee Martin? Kyle Wittingham? PJ Fleck?
Click to expand...

If Tennessee hires Les Miles, I will stop my giving to the university during his tenure.

Hamilton tried to lure Wittingham to Tennessee and was rebuffed. Perhaps an AD worth working for may get a different answer, but, I don't think so.

Butch Jones was "P. J. Fleck" when Tennessee hired him.

Gruden? No. Stop it.

Reality is that Jones is contracted through 2020. Barring criminal conduct, breach of ethics, or a complete meltdown, he will head up the football program for the next three years. Tennessee's new AD will be busy evaluating the department and each of its programs. The new AD isn't arriving on campus with a laser focus on football, and any rational being can see the positive progress of the program during Jones' brief tenure to date.
 
#33
#33
BeardedVol said:
This.

Butch is here through 2018 no matter how poorly this season or next season turns out. Giving him an extension to 2020 was the dumbest thing Dave Hart ever did. No school was seriously going to come and take Butch Jones from TN.
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Reminds me of the golden parachute "8-4" acceptable years put in place by Hamilton during the latter part of Fulmer's tenure.
 
#34
#34
BeardedVol said:
There's playing well, and catching the breaks, and then there's playing poorly, and needing the breaks to win. We've been the latter all season long.

The SEC east is as low as it ever will be, and CBJ could not put together a winning team with juniors and seniors whom he recruited. It's not going to get any easier for him.
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I agree completely. But I guess we all have our own internal definition of "winning team". Some would say CBJ has done that 2 times already with a third on the way. Those with more discernible (or unreasonable) tastes may view differently what winning means for a program like UT.

My guess you and I are somewhere on that spectrum but not in the same spot.
 
#35
#35
Vol fans can be such emotional idiots... Ex: Dogging the players on Twitter. The simple minded 'fire X' arguments are right up there.

Fact is this is our best team and record in forever. Coulda shoulda wouldas. It's the SEC. We beat Georgia and uSC when we shouldn't have (on paper.)

Butch has issues but resetting the clock won't help. It will be more chaos. This program needs stability.

The top recruiting classes are a blessing and a curse. We got some divas and excitement but along with that comes the drama. We get a huge RB like Hurd which people said from day 1 doesn't fit the system and tried to make it work. Square peg, round hole.

With more credibility and less desperation we did the same thing with Jauan Jennings. Gave him a shot at QB, didn't work out and converted him to what you see today.

Hurd ain't the first and won't be the last stud who didn't work out. I appreciate the work he put in and wish he would make a different choice but it's done. I hope Kongbo stays and is a dominate force. But if he makes another choice we'll roll on.

But the moronic part of the fanbase going full retard on players via social media is not going to help the cause and will her recruiting and team chemistry. It's a shame that the vocal minority can carry so much weight and that kids take this stuff very seriously unfortunately.

Winning out will put us in double digit wins for the first time since 2007. 10 wins this year would still be our best record in a decade. I'll gladly take that over a string of 5-7's.
 
#36
#36
FlyFishnVol said:
I think the answer to your question is too simplistic, the bottom line is not that 10-3 is bad......actually that is fine for most teams outside the SEC. This was suppose to be his best team and they have played inconsistently all year, were they lucky?........I would say yes. the biggest changes needing to be done is Butch's attitude toward what is glaringly apparent, the offense is woefully underachieving and the intensity of the OL reminds me of Ferris Buller...........absent. If these young men can't get up to the line a play like they own a pair........then move over and let a freshman try. I would rather lose with a undersized player giving his all, than a 6'5" 315lb wuss that can't remember his blocking assignment and allow the WORST DL in the SEC walk all over them. The OL has to have an attitude and determined will to bring a bad day to the DL, I don't see this is most of the players......Jack Jones has this attitude, but his buddies do not.
Click to expand...

I just looked it ip. Since 1922 (roughly when the Vols started playing 10 games a year) Tennessee has had twenty 10 or more win seasons. That's about 95 years of data or so.

So simple math tells me the Vols win 10 games on a historical basis about 20% of the time. This percentage by the way lands the Vols in the top 10 in about every major stat governing college football (wins, titles, bowls, bowls won, etc.). So it is a meaningful stat.

Its stuff like this that blows me away when someone craps all over a 10 win season. It just does not happen often. Of course there are more games today. Starting roughly 1970 most teams played 12 games. Hence whey over half of the Vols 10 win seasons have come since 1970.

Regardless 10 wins is one helluva feat if CBJ can get there. And nobody on this board should forget that for a moment.
 
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#37
#37
FearThe4 said:
Vol fans can be such emotional idiots... Ex: Dogging the players on Twitter. The simple minded 'fire X' arguments are right up there.

Fact is this is our best team and record in forever. Coulda shoulda wouldas. It's the SEC. We beat Georgia and uSC when we shouldn't have (on paper.)

Butch has issues but resetting the clock won't help. It will be more chaos. This program needs stability.

The top recruiting classes are a blessing and a curse. We got some divas and excitement but along with that comes the drama. We get a huge RB like Hurd which people said from day 1 doesn't fit the system and tried to make it work. Square peg, round hole.

With more credibility and less desperation we did the same thing with Jauan Jennings. Gave him a shot at QB, didn't work out and converted him to what you see today.

Hurd ain't the first and won't be the last stud who didn't work out. I appreciate the work he put in and wish he would make a different choice but it's done. I hope Kongbo stays and is a dominate force. But if he makes another choice we'll roll on.

But the moronic part of the fanbase going full retard on players via social media is not going to help the cause and will her recruiting and team chemistry. It's a shame that the vocal minority can carry so much weight and that kids take this stuff very seriously unfortunately.

Winning out will put us in double digit wins for the first time since 2007. 10 wins this year would still be our best record in a decade. I'll gladly take that over a string of 5-7's.
Click to expand...

Great! We are going to "compete" when the East is at its lowest point... Butch will never win the SEC, much less the East, and you're smoking if you think he will ever win the SEC... Butch put it best himself today, he is the caretaker of the program.... He is just occupying the position until someone better comes along.
 
#38
#38
AD's expectations are put forth in Butch's contract. His biggest metric:...gets a $200K bonus for getting us the Outback Bowl. $100K for APR 965 or greater. $50K for finishing in Top 25. All of this you can accomplish by finishing second in SEC east.
 
#39
#39
IndianapolisVol said:
1. Butch takes control of the offense/play calling, puts his money where his mouth is, salvages 10-3 with a convincing bowl win.

Honestly this is his only shot to win back the fan base (and the team?) after this past 72 hours. It will tell us a lot if any of our underclassman (Excluding Barnett) stay for a senior year and if JRM explores additional eligibility.

2. Butch doesn't get the job done and Hart or a new AD/(AD in waiting?) goes another route and finally hires a staff that can take us back to the 1996-2007 level that we had once grown so accustomed to. That would take a strong recruiter AND a strong game day coach.

Would you all be mad if Les Miles came and Peyton was hired as offensive coordinator? What about if Chavis came back to coach the defense? If the AD put the stadium project on hold until Butch was paid off and opened their wallet and had 3-5 high level boosters supplement, we could REALLY have the best staff in America.

So, if it is scenario 2, who are some names you want on the staff? Aside from Peyton, Gruden, etc...

Tee Martin? Kyle Wittingham? PJ Fleck?
Click to expand...


(1) Do not see Barnett returning for another season. He is a top 10 pick. Why risk a down season or injury?

(2) JRM will likely return because of his size and his being injury prone. He needs a strong season to improve his NFL stock.

(3) None of the coaches that you listed will ever come to U.T., unless they are on the opposite side of the field and are coaching our opponent.
We love U.T. and see the best in it but others don't see it. Have you not noticed that When Kiffin left, we literally settled for the tenth person on the wish list.
When Dooley left, we settled for the 10th person on our wish list. THis also goes for basketball. C. Martin was our 10th person on the list.

(4) THis craziness will hurt us on the recruiting trail. Other universities will use this soap opera as negative recruiting and we will lose some of our potential signees.
 
#40
#40
Our offensive scheme and coaching has been a weakness since Butch arrived. Offensive line play as been weak--and so has our passing game and play-calling, by and large.

We have we been behind in every game but one this year? Why have we played like crap in almost every first half this year? There is no excuse for that. We play South Carolina after a week's rest and they score a TD on their first possession. Offensive execution and play-calling are always poor/predictable until we're behind. Not good enough.
 
#41
#41
jamesthesame said:
I like Butch. I think his offensive scheme is lacking. With that said, I hope he makes necessary adjustments this year.

If Butch goes 10-3 this year, is that really something he should be fired over?
Click to expand...

I don't think that is the elephant in the room quesstion.

The issue is that we are in year 4 of the Butch Jones Era.

The season was way over hyped and due to different circumstances has failed live up to the hype.

Everyone was expecting us to win the East and go to Atlanta.

Everyone was expecting us win out after the bama disaster.

Now reality is setting in...

1. We lost to a very bad USCe team with muschamp as HC.

2. Winning the East may not happen.

3. We won games previously that should have not even been that close to begin with.

4. We are bleeding players left and right.

And now...the orange color glasses is off and Vol Nation for the first time is seeing reality.
 
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#42
#42
Our fan base kills me throwing HC names out as if all we have to do is ask and they'll come running.

If we do fire Butch (not happening) our administration is conceding that we're not as bad off as we where when we had to settle for Dooley, but we're still worse off than we we're when we signed Butch.

Most the names that keep getting thrown around probably wouldn't touch our HC situation with a stick.
1. Recruits getting poached
2. Transfer attrition HC changes cause
3. Shoop might leave. Regardless what some of you may think the man is a top D coordinator and we don't want to lose him.

Fireing Butch would be a catastrophic step back.

If 8-10 wins is Butch's peak, we're better off waiting until 2018/19. A couple seasons suffering 8-10 wins allows the new AD to have acclimated to his position, and enough separation from the wilderness Dooley years, that some of these higher profile guys might be more inclined to accept the job.

Trusting Butch, or not trusting & praying for the best in 2017 from him, is a safer play then thinking we could replace him and improve in 2017.

But heck, if I'm wrong and mob mentality is correct, maybe Charlie Strong will want the job this time.
 
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#43
#43
ToptheTerrible said:
I just looked it ip. Since 1922 (roughly when the Vols started playing 10 games a year) Tennessee has had twenty 10 or more win seasons. That's about 95 years of data or so.

So simple math tells me the Vols win 10 games on a historical basis about 20% of the time. This percentage by the way lands the Vols in the top 10 in about every major stat governing college football (wins, titles, bowls, bowls won, etc.). So it is a meaningful stat.

Its stuff like this that blows me away when someone craps all over a 10 win season. It just does not happen often. Of course there are more games today. Starting roughly 1970 most teams played 12 games. Hence whey over half of the Vols 10 win seasons have come since 1970.

Regardless 10 wins is one helluva feat if CBJ can get there. And nobody on this board should forget that for a moment.
Click to expand...


We haven't won 10 games. We've won 5. I'm not sure what team you are watching, but nothing tells me we are going to waltz through these next several weeks. Firing Butch now would be insanity. If he finishes this season with a 10-3 record, I'll say well done and now get back to work. That won't happen unless some things change. But, if he rolls out the same garbage we've seen week after week, this team is definitely in trouble and Butch Jones' time at Tennessee should be in question. This team better prepare for Tenn Tech, Mizzou, UK, and Vandy like they are about to play Bama.
 
#44
#44
IndianapolisVol said:
1. Butch takes control of the offense/play calling, puts his money where his mouth is, salvages 10-3 with a convincing bowl win.

2. Butch doesn't get the job done and Hart or a new AD/(AD in waiting?) goes another route and makes a new hire.
Click to expand...

Edited your post. We have no idea if a new hire is an upgrade. If Chip Kelly says I want to return to college, and would accept UT offer, that is about as close as its going to get.

Les Miles is 62 - I doubt he can take UT to next level. P. J. Fleck, good record in the MAC. But SEC is totally different. Same situation as Taggart at USF.

I hope it's 1) above and that CBJ learns something from this year, recognizes that your OC and DC need to be top flight and given freedom to operate what they believe is best for their personnel.
 
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#45
#45
FearThe4 said:
Vol fans can be such emotional idiots... Ex: Dogging the players on Twitter. The simple minded 'fire X' arguments are right up there.

Fact is this is our best team and record in forever. Coulda shoulda wouldas. It's the SEC. We beat Georgia and uSC when we shouldn't have (on paper.)

Butch has issues but resetting the clock won't help. It will be more chaos. This program needs stability.

The top recruiting classes are a blessing and a curse. We got some divas and excitement but along with that comes the drama. We get a huge RB like Hurd which people said from day 1 doesn't fit the system and tried to make it work. Square peg, round hole.

With more credibility and less desperation we did the same thing with Jauan Jennings. Gave him a shot at QB, didn't work out and converted him to what you see today.

Hurd ain't the first and won't be the last stud who didn't work out. I appreciate the work he put in and wish he would make a different choice but it's done. I hope Kongbo stays and is a dominate force. But if he makes another choice we'll roll on.

But the moronic part of the fanbase going full retard on players via social media is not going to help the cause and will her recruiting and team chemistry. It's a shame that the vocal minority can carry so much weight and that kids take this stuff very seriously unfortunately.

Winning out will put us in double digit wins for the first time since 2007. 10 wins this year would still be our best record in a decade. I'll gladly take that over a string of 5-7's.
Click to expand...

I don't see any stability in this program whatsoever right now. Our leading rusher for the last 2 years just up and quit in the middle of the season cause he couldn't stand to be around the coaching staff for one more minute and it appears like kongbo was talked off the ledge yesterday.
 
#48
#48
Maybe two rationale outcomes.....but not the only two. Some may be even better, but we will see
 
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