Official Global Warming thread (merged)

Just like organized religion there are the few at the top making craploads of money, or spinning a message to controll the masses. They are getting rich while the sheep follow along and regurgatate the talking points.

That's the most generic conspiracy theory ever. I could make the same "argument" for vaccines or HIV being a conspiracy. In fact some people do. I suspect even some people in this thread. I would love to hear your responses to my poll.

This!!!! /thread

I didn't realize we had so many atheists in here.

Specifically, how does your conspiracy theory work? Who are the conspirators? What is their goal? How do they intend to achieve it? Where is the money coming from, and where is it going? How? Consider this post when formulating your response:

1. Climate scientists are typically paid 40-80k, with senior researchers breaking six figures. Not a bad salary, but not as much as academics in other physical sciences and not nearly as much as their contemporaries in the private sector. If climate scientists are in it for the money they're doing it wrong.

2. Climate scientists don't *need* global warming. Their salary doesn't depend on the outcome of their research. Projects are funded without knowing the outcome. And if global warming weren't real scientists would simply study something else.

3. If anyone could disprove AGW they would win a Nobel prize.

4. How is it exactly that global warming funnels money to brown people? The carbon tax is a regressive tax, meaning if anything it will be tougher on low income families and developing nations.

5. If it's a left-wing anti-business conspiracy, why do all those businesses and high profile conservative economists and politicians I've listed support the carbon tax?
 
Here's a better list:

1. CFCs and ozone depletion
2. SO2 and acid rain
3. Santa Claus
4. Easter Bunny
5. Tooth Fairy
6. Jack Frost
7. Evolution
8. Leprechauns
9. Big Foot
10. DDT
11. AGW
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person

The scientific consensus is groupthink! Unless of course it agrees with my sociopolitical ideology, in which case it’s absolute truth!

I take it you’ve never been to a scientific conference. It’s not a bunch of yes-men giving eachother high-fives after their talks. Scientists are extremely skeptical. They tear eachother’s work apart. When a new idea is published scientists rush to replicate the experiment. Peer-review is the highest level of rigor in society.

Contrarian voices aren’t silenced, or people like Lindzen would be out of a job. To the contrary their voices are amplified. The reason *skeptics* like Singer can’t get published is because they’ve been caught in bold-faced lies so many times nobody takes them seriously.

Again, if anyone could disprove AGW they would win a Nobel prize. If anyone could even offer a competing hypothesis their career would take off. Why would and how could the entire worldwide scientific community conspire to espouse one theory over another?
 
Here's a better list:

1. CFCs and ozone depletion
2. SO2 and acid rain
3. Santa Claus
4. Easter Bunny
5. Tooth Fairy
6. Jack Frost
7. Evolution
8. Leprechauns
9. Big Foot
10. DDT
11. AGW

Are you too embarrassed to answer seriously? Or is this your cute way of answering yes to 1,2,7,10,11/no to the rest? Because my list was serious. Those are all scientific truths that have been opposed by denialist campaigns. And it's typically the same organizations and even same people (despite their obvious lack of expertise in different fields) a la Singer doing the dirty work.

joecamstack2.jpg



billboard2-620x2291.png
 
The scientific consensus is groupthink! Unless of course it agrees with my sociopolitical ideology, in which case it’s absolute truth!

I take it you’ve never been to a scientific conference. It’s not a bunch of yes-men giving eachother high-fives after their talks. Scientists are extremely skeptical. They tear eachother’s work apart. When a new idea is published scientists rush to replicate the experiment. Peer-review is the highest level of rigor in society.

Contrarian voices aren’t silenced, or people like Lindzen would be out of a job. To the contrary their voices are amplified. The reason *skeptics* like Singer can’t get published is because they’ve been caught in bold-faced lies so many times nobody takes them seriously.

Again, if anyone could disprove AGW they would win a Nobel prize. If anyone could even offer a competing hypothesis their career would take off. Why would and how could the entire worldwide scientific community conspire to espouse one theory over another?

What ever you have to tell yourself dude.
 
The planet is not in danger of catastrophic man made global warming. Even if we burn all the world's recoverable fossil fuels it will still only result in a temperature rise of less than 1.2 degrees C.

So say The Right Climate Stuff Research Team, a group of retired NASA Apollo scientists and engineers - the men who put Neil Armstrong on the moon - in a new report.

"It's an embarrassment to those of us who put NASA's name on the map to have people like James Hansen popping off about global warming," says the project's leader Hal Doiron.

Doiron was one of 40 ex NASA employees - including seven astronauts - who wrote in April 2012 to NASA administrator Charles Bolden protesting about the organization's promotion of climate change alarmism, notably via its resident environmental activist James Hansen.

During his stint as head of the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies, Hansen tirelessly promoted Anthropogenic Global Warming theory. He retired last year to spend more time on environmental campaigning and has twice been arrested with former mermaid impersonator Darryl Hannah for his part in protests against surface coal mining and the Keystone XL pipe line. While still head of NASA GISS he once described trains carrying coal as "death trains" "no less gruesome than if they were carrying boxcars headed to crematoria and loaded with uncountable irreplaceable species." Many NASA employees and former employees found his views an embarrassment.

Doiron and his team now hope to set the record straight in a report called Bounding GHG Climate Sensitivity For Use In Regulatory Decisions.

Using calculations by George Stegemeier of the National Academy of Engineering, they estimated the total quantity of recoverable oil, gas and coal on the planet. They then used 163 years of real world temperature data to calculate Transient Climate Sensitivity (ie how much the world will warm as a result of the burning of all the carbon dioxide in the fossil fuel). The figure they came up with 1.2 degrees C which is considerably lower than the wilder claims of the IPCC, whose reports have suggested it could be as high as 4 degrees C or more.

This is because, as scientists such as the Cato Institute's Pat Michaels have long argued, "climate sensitivity" (ie how the planet's temperature responds to CO2 emissions) is considerably lower than the IPCC's computer models project. So much so that it should be called "climate insensitivity", he believes.

Doiron is similarly sceptical of the computer models used by climate alarmists. He and his team argue that the 105 models currently used by the IPCC are seriously flawed because they don't agree with each other and don't agree with empirical data.

There is no empirical data indicating Anthropogenic Global Warming will produce catastrophic climate changes. AGW can only produce modest global warming, likely to be beneficial when CO2 benefits to crop production are considered.

Doiron says: "I believe in computer models. My whole career was about using computer models to make life or death decisions. In 1963 I had to use them to calculate whether, when the lunar module landed on a 12 degree slope it would fall over or not - and design the landing gear accordingly. But if you can't validate the models - and the IPCC can't - then don't use them to make critical decisions about the economy and the planet's future."
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person

"Right Climate Stuff"

Sounds legit :)

NASA Retirees Appeal to their Own Lack of Climate Authority


NASA Study: Climate Sensitivity Is High So ‘Long-Term Warming Likely To Be Significant’

Yet another new study finds the climate’s sensitivity to carbon pollution is on the high side. That means, absent rapid reductions in greenhouse gases, global warming is likely to be high enough to destroy a livable climate.

This is consistent with a January Nature study on climate sensitivity, which found we are headed toward a “most-likely warming of roughly 5°C [9°F] above modern [i.e. current] temperatures or 6°C [11°F] above preindustrial” temperatures this century.

This finding is also consistent with paleoclimate data (see “Last Time CO2 Levels Hit 400 Parts Per Million The Arctic Was 14°F Warmer!”). Also, this study is consistent with other recent observation-based analyses (see “Observations Support Predictions Of Extreme Warming And Worse Droughts This Century”).

And this study throws yet more cold water (hot water?) on some claims that the climate’s sensitivity is on the low side, claims that have been widely challenged and perhaps fatally undermined by the most recent studies.
 
Last edited:
Well-thought-out response :crazy:

You're all so sure it's a conspiracy but you can't even invent a coherent conspiracy theory.

Groupthink is not a conspiracy theory.
Keep drinking the cool aid. It clearly gives people like you a purpose in life. Maybe one day you'll find a girl/guy to fill that void.
 
Groupthink is not a conspiracy theory.
Keep drinking the cool aid. It clearly gives people like you a purpose in life. Maybe one day you'll find a girl/guy to fill that void.

I'm flattered OS, but already got one. Good haul too -- sexy, smart, and rich :loco:

This sure sounds like a conspiracy theory to me:

Just like organized religion there are the few at the top making craploads of money, or spinning a message to controll the masses. They are getting rich while the sheep follow along and regurgatate the talking points. I feel sorry for those like yourself who have bought into the cult. Maybe one day you'll wake up and see it for what it is.

Are you backtracking or relabeling? Either way you haven't addressed any of my critiques.
 
The Aids policies of the former South African president Thabo Mbeki's government were directly responsible for the avoidable deaths of more than a third of a million people in the country, according to research by Harvard university.

South Africa has one of the severest HIV/Aids epidemics in the world. About 5.5 million people, or 18.8% of the adult population, have HIV, according to the UN. In 2005, there were about 900 deaths a day.

But from the late 1990s Mbeki turned his back on the scientific consensus that Aids was caused by a viral infection that could be fought – though not cured – by sophisticated and expensive medical drugs. He came under the influence of a group of maverick scientists known as Aids denialists, most prominent among whom was Peter Duesberg from Berkeley, California.

In 2000, Mbeki called together a round table of experts, including Duesberg and his supporters, but also their opponents, to discuss the cause of Aids. Later that year, at the International Aids conference in Durban, he publicly rejected the accepted scientific wisdom. Aids, he said, was brought about by the collapse of the immune system – but not because of a virus.

The cause, he said, was poverty, bad nourishment and general ill-health. The solution was not expensive western medicine, but the alleviation of poverty in Africa.

Mbeki Aids denial 'caused 300,000 deaths'

Sound familiar?
 
There are many ideas, not supported by any accepted evidence, that vaccines are inherently harmful. For example, it is claimed that specific vaccines such as MMR (mumps, measles and rubella), or specific ingredients like thiomersal are causative factors leading to disease. Some claims are more vague, based on the feeling that vaccines are "unnatural," that they are somehow "useless," or that the diseases they prevent "aren't that bad anyway." Anti-vaccination campaigners often use the language of being for "freedom" in whether to be vaccinated, such as with MMR, where the campaign was the "choice" to take a non-combined vaccine. These beliefs often stem from other ideological positions; for instance, vaccination programs are seen as excessive government interference, or as an implementation of socialized medicine, although it's hardly just a conservative thing, as a look around The Huffington Post will tell you, and New Age woo is another reason some oppose vaccines. Similarly, those against "artificial" interference will also shun vaccination regardless of efficacy. It could be argued that these ideologies are the root causes of anti-vaccination positions, and bias which specific concern an individual will be attracted to.

Anti-vaccination movement

Sound familiar?
 
There are many ideas, not supported by any accepted evidence, that vaccines are inherently harmful. For example, it is claimed that specific vaccines such as MMR (mumps, measles and rubella), or specific ingredients like thiomersal are causative factors leading to disease. Some claims are more vague, based on the feeling that vaccines are "unnatural," that they are somehow "useless," or that the diseases they prevent "aren't that bad anyway." Anti-vaccination campaigners often use the language of being for "freedom" in whether to be vaccinated, such as with MMR, where the campaign was the "choice" to take a non-combined vaccine. These beliefs often stem from other ideological positions; for instance, vaccination programs are seen as excessive government interference, or as an implementation of socialized medicine, although it's hardly just a conservative thing, as a look around The Huffington Post will tell you, and New Age woo is another reason some oppose vaccines. Similarly, those against "artificial" interference will also shun vaccination regardless of efficacy. It could be argued that these ideologies are the root causes of anti-vaccination positions, and bias which specific concern an individual will be attracted to.

Anti-vaccination movement

Sound familiar?

Yes, the AGW movement or the anti-natural movement.
 
Last edited:
Yes, the AGW movement or the anti-natural movement.

Lolwut.jpg

Explain yourself! Actually, don't.

I'm happy to report I came across this excellent paper that I first read a few years back in UT's EEB - 305 Evolution in Society course (great class btw). It's a short read with some great examples, but I'll summarize anyway.

Denialism: what is it and how should scientists respond?

What is denialism?

"The employment of rhetorical arguments to give the appearance of legitimate debate where there is none"

What are the characteristics of denialism?


1. Conspiracy Theories
When the overwhelming body of scientific opinion believes that something is true, it is argued that this is not because those scientists have independently studied the evidence and reached the same conclusion. It is because they have engaged in a complex and secretive conspiracy.

2. Fake Experts
These are individuals who purport to be experts in a particular area but whose views are entirely inconsistent with established knowledge. They have been used extensively by the tobacco industry since 1974, when a senior executive with R J Reynolds devised a system to score scientists working on tobacco in relation to the extent to which they were supportive of the industry’s position.

The use of fake experts is often complemented by denigration of established experts and researchers, with accusations and innuendo that seek to discredit their work and cast doubt on their motivations. Stanton Glantz, professor of medicine at the University of California, San Francisco and who has made a great contribution to exposing tobacco industry tactics, is a frequent target for tobacco denialists. He is described on the Forces website as infamous for being the boldest of liars in ‘‘tobacco control’’ that most ethically challenged gang of con artists.

3. Cherrypicking
The third characteristic is selectivity, drawing on isolated papers that challenge the dominant consensus or highlighting the flaws in the weakest papers among those that support it as a means of discrediting the entire field.

Denialists are usually not deterred by the extreme isolation of their theories, but rather see it as the indication of their intellectual courage against the dominant orthodoxy and the accompanying political correctness, often comparing themselves to Galileo.

4. Impossible Expectations
The fourth is the creation of impossible expectations of what research can deliver. For example, those denying the reality of climate change point to the absence of accurate temperature records from before the invention of the thermometer. Others use the intrinsic uncertainty of mathematical models to reject them entirely as a means of understanding a phenomenon.

5. Logical fallacies
The fifth is the use of misrepresentation and logical fallacies. Logical fallacies include the use of red herrings, or deliberate attempts to change the argument and straw men, where the opposing argument is misrepresented to makeit easier to refute.

Other fallacies used by denialists are false analogy, exemplified by the argument against evolution that, as the universe and a watch are both extremely complex, the universe must have been created by the equivalent of a watchmaker and the excluded middle fallacy (either passive smoking causes a wide range of specified diseases or causes none at all, so doubt about an association with one disease, such as breast cancer, is regarded as sufficient to reject an association with any disease).

How should one respond to denialism?


Denialists are driven by a range of motivations. For some it is greed, lured by the corporate largesse of the oil and tobacco industries. For others it is ideology or faith, causing them to reject anything incompatible with their fundamental beliefs. Finally there is eccentricity and idiosyncrasy, sometimes encouraged by the celebrity status conferred on the maverick by the media.

Whatever the motivation, it is important to recognize denialism when confronted with it. The normal academic response to an opposing argument is to engage with it, testing the strengths and weaknesses of the differing views, in the expectations that the truth will emerge through a process of debate. However, this requires that both parties obey certain ground rules, such as a willingness to look at the evidence as a whole, to reject deliberate distortions and to accept principles of logic. A meaningful discourse is impossible when one party rejects these rules. Yet it would be wrong to prevent the denialists from having a voice. Instead, we argue, it is necessary to shift the debate from the subject under consideration, instead exposing to public scrutiny the tactics they employ and identifying them publicly for what they are. An understanding of the five tactics listed above provides a useful framework for doing so.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
Here's another must-read on the denialist mindset

What is at the root of denial?

In a recent study of climate blog readers, Lewandowksy and his colleagues found that the strongest predictor of being a climate change denier is having a libertarian, free market world view. Or as Lewandowsky put it in our interview, “the overwhelming factor that determined whether or not people rejected climate science is their worldview or their ideology.” This naturally lends support to the “motivated reasoning” theory—a conservative view about the efficiency of markets impels rejection of climate science because if climate science were true, markets would very clearly have failed in an very important instance.

But separately, the same study also found a second factor that was a weaker, but still real, predictor of climate change denial—and also of the denial of other scientific findings such as the proven link between HIV and AIDS. And that factor was conspiracy theorizing. Thus, people who think, say, that the Moon landings were staged by Hollywood, or that Lee Harvey Oswald had help, are also more likely to be climate deniers and HIV-AIDS deniers.

This is similar to what we’ve been saying for years. Ideology is at the heart of antiscience, (yes even liberal ideology) and when in conflict with science will render the ideologue incapable of rational evaluation of facts. The more extreme the ideology, the more likely and more severe the divergence from science. Then there is the separate issue of cranks who have a generalized defect in their reasoning abilities, are generally incompetent at recognizing bad ideas, often believing conflicting theories simultaneously, and are given to support any other crank who they feel is showing science is somehow fundamentally wrong. This is the “paranoid style”, it’s well-described, and likely, irreversible.
 
Here's another must-read on the denialist mindset

What is at the root of denial?

In a recent study of climate blog readers, Lewandowksy and his colleagues found that the strongest predictor of being a climate change denier is having a libertarian, free market world view. Or as Lewandowsky put it in our interview, “the overwhelming factor that determined whether or not people rejected climate science is their worldview or their ideology.” This naturally lends support to the “motivated reasoning” theory—a conservative view about the efficiency of markets impels rejection of climate science because if climate science were true, markets would very clearly have failed in an very important instance.

But separately, the same study also found a second factor that was a weaker, but still real, predictor of climate change denial—and also of the denial of other scientific findings such as the proven link between HIV and AIDS. And that factor was conspiracy theorizing. Thus, people who think, say, that the Moon landings were staged by Hollywood, or that Lee Harvey Oswald had help, are also more likely to be climate deniers and HIV-AIDS deniers.

This is similar to what we’ve been saying for years. Ideology is at the heart of antiscience, (yes even liberal ideology) and when in conflict with science will render the ideologue incapable of rational evaluation of facts. The more extreme the ideology, the more likely and more severe the divergence from science. Then there is the separate issue of cranks who have a generalized defect in their reasoning abilities, are generally incompetent at recognizing bad ideas, often believing conflicting theories simultaneously, and are given to support any other crank who they feel is showing science is somehow fundamentally wrong. This is the “paranoid style”, it’s well-described, and likely, irreversible.

that's just pure idiocy by some asshat mother jones writer that got picked up by a blog in the hopes of damaging the credibility of libertarian thought
 
that's just pure idiocy by some asshat mother jones writer that got picked up by a blog in the hopes of damaging the credibility of libertarian thought

It's really not. It has nothing to do with libertarianism per se. If you look at Mark Hoofnagle's articles you'll see he's not anti-libertarian, he's anti-denialism (also anti-environmentalist). Ironic you would say that though. Let's look at some more of that blog:

"Recognizing that the problem of anti-science is not one of a lack of information, or of education, or of framing is of paramount concern. This is a problem with humans. This is the way we think by default. People tend to arrive at their beliefs based on things like their upbringing, their religion, their politics, and other unreliable sources. When opinions are formed based on these deeply-held beliefs or heuristics, all information subsequently encountered is either used to reinforce this belief, or is ignored. This is why studies showing education doesn’t work, the more educated the partisan is on a topic, the more entrenched they become. You can’t inform or argue your way out of this problem, you have to fundamentally change the way people reason before they form these fixed beliefs.

Scientific reasoning and pragmatism is fundamentally unnatural and extremely difficult. Even scientists, when engaged in a particular nasty internal ideological conflict, have been known to deny the science. This is because when one’s ideology is challenged by the facts you are in essence creating an existential crisis. The facts become an assault on the person themselves, their deepest beliefs, and how they perceive and understand the world. What is done in this situation? Does the typical individual suck it up, and change, fundamentally, who they are as a person? Of course not! They invent a conspiracy theory as to why the facts have to be wrong. They cherry pick the evidence that supports them, believe any fake expert that espouses the same nonsense and will always demand more and more evidence, never being satisfied that their core beliefs might be wrong. This is where “motivated reasoning” comes from. It’s a defense of self from the onslaught of uncomfortable facts. Think of the creationist confronted with a fossil record, molecular biology, geology, physics, and half a dozen other scientific fields, are they ever convinced? No, because it’s all an atheist conspiracy to make them lose their religion."
 
says the guy pushing GW

Please tell me how my libertarian beliefs blind me to the obvious global conspiracy known as science.

The fact that human CO2 emissions are causing global warming is a scientific truth, not a political stance. Pushing the carbon tax is a political stance. I'm open to other ideas but people don't seem as interested in discussing the politics as they are in denying the science.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 person
Please tell me how my libertarian beliefs blind me to the obvious global conspiracy known as science.

The fact that human CO2 emissions are causing global warming is a scientific truth, not a political stance. Pushing the carbon tax is a political stance. I'm open to other ideas but people don't seem as interested in discussing the politics as they are in denying the science.

Scientific truth. You're sociopathic.
 
Advertisement





Back
Top