Noah's Ark

Here is the issue I'm having with your argument; the things you have just mentioned have had the ability to be scientifically tested. Scientists thought that dark matter must exist since the gravitational pull of all the things in the universe did not add up to what they thought was required to keep everything together (obviously I'm simplifying by a great deal). So even though there was no true way to see dark matter, there was a way to test that it existed. Same with the Higgs boson particle. Even though there was no real way to measure it, there was evidence of its existence thanks to our understanding of how the Standard model should work.

To be honest, I'm not really interested in the nits you're picking. You invented a logical rule that one must disbelieve something until it is proven (rephrase it any way you wish). I listed several examples from the scientific process that show that your invented logical rule was, in fact, an invented logical rule.

I can list several scientific beliefs and theories that are taken as gospel, and yet are impossible to prove. Shall we start with Darwinian evolution? You can give evidence that you feel supports it. But you will never, ever, ever be able to observe it happen. (You can observe changes within a kind, but never observe true Darwinian evolution.) Darwinian evolutionists freely admit this.

But that's beside the point. I provided two examples of scientific beliefs held without evidence-- merely because of implications.

:hi:
 
I'll be honest with everyone, I've enjoyed reading a lot of this because its not the normal terribly ignorant debate on "religion vs science" that I'm used to (most religious people won't even discuss the possibility of evolution or most even basic scientific knowledge that might refute religion, and there are even less people with any mid to high end biology or chemistry knowledge). However there are a few things that I've seen that I can't quote all at once because they are on separate pages, so I have to address them a bit more generally than point by point, and some of the topics were dropped or forgotten, so I may be bringing up older closed points.

First, most biologists (at least the dozens I've learned under, worked with, and read) do not really believe in the separation of "Micro" and "Macro" evolution as two different things. Using those terms to mean two different things is something people who don't study the subject use quite often, however.

I had a research project that I began my sophomore year of college that I intend to continue into grad school, and what I did was stress microscopic organisms with anything from heat to cold, to derivatives of agent orange and more. Early on, the organisms died in almost every instance you would expect, which is what our evidence showed from other studies. However, after a few years using the offspring of many of these that did survive, they started to resist certain things quite a bit (I'm talking in the hundreds of generations). It got to where the test groups could more survive heat (whereas before they would more die). In essence, we sped up evolution on them in the form of resistance to heat.

Some would argue that is microevolution for two reasons. First, that is, biologically speaking, lightning fast for any form of evolution to occur (which is why I'm debating doing a thesis on it in grad school), second, it is micro because the organisms in question can still mate with non heat resistant organisms and produce viable offspring.

The fact is, it is neither micro or macro evolution. It is simply evolution, a change in the genetic code. Anyone who says one can occur (but not the other) needs imply be asked, "What logical, biological, or chemical roadblock can stop Micro from becoming macro? Or Macro into being broken into more measurable micro?"

Now to much less serious/more funny/logic thinking things over science:

I'm no marine biologist, but if God flooded the world, He HAD to do something for the fish and water animals, as either the world could've been all salt water or all fresh water (depending on how he wanted the rain to be composition wise), but in no way could both types of fish/animals survive, and if he did something to protect both, the bible would say so.

Lastly, the earth is about 4.5 BYO (the moon is about 4.15 BYO as far as I know) and the universe is roughly 14 BYO (the milky way closer to 13). With a few crazy exceptions in the scientific community, this is widely regarded as common sense to scientists. Disagreeing with that is like disagreeing with evolution (The 2+2 = 4 of biology) or chemical bonding (ditto, but for chemistry). There's no reason to do it because it won't do anything more than make most people laugh or completely disregard what you say.

That's not to offend anyone who doesn't believe in those things, simply to say that it's like playing poker but refusing straights and flushes count, so they shouldn't for anyone else either. You can still win occasionally with 2 pair or three of a kind, but you'll not last against guys who use the whole deck.
 
To be honest, I'm not really interested in the nits you're picking. You invented a logical rule that one must disbelieve something until it is proven (rephrase it any way you wish). I listed several examples from the scientific process that show that your invented logical rule was, in fact, an invented logical rule.

I can list several scientific beliefs and theories that are taken as gospel, and yet are impossible to prove. Shall we start with Darwinian evolution? You can give evidence that you feel supports it. But you will never, ever, ever be able to observe it happen. (You can observe changes within a kind, but never observe true Darwinian evolution.) Darwinian evolutionists freely admit this.

But that's beside the point. I provided two examples of scientific beliefs held without evidence-- merely because of implications.

:hi:

I'm just going to leave this here....the DIRECT evidence supporting the scientific THEORY of evolution is massive, on both the micro and macro scale. No such DIRECT evidence exists for that of a supreme being. Only inferences and rebuttals that science can't disprove it. Not even close to a comparison.
 
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Feel free to point out where I definitively said God doesn't exist. Any inference you claim to that fact is on you. All I've said is the position of the believers is inadequate to convincing me.

I've asked this before and gotten mixed responses, but what evidence would it take for you to cease believing in God, and Christianity in particular? I suspect an honest answer to that question would say a lot to why you believe what you do. I'm not trying to start an argument with that question and you don't even have to respond. Just food for thought.

Let's revisit the post that you and I got started about.

So god created this little random planet in the middle of nowhere, orbiting a standard star, on the edge of a common galaxy floating in a expanse of space that isn't really special at all. We know that life can only survive on some of its surface some of the time. 99% of All species ever living are now dead, and eventually the sun will engulf this planet killing everything forever.

This is some God isn't it? Even more ridiculous is that his primary concern has been meddling in the real estate affairs of a specific people on a worthless patch of desert in the Middle East, justified by a set of 1000's year old texts every other religion believes to be true that details his history of narcissistic genocide and family carpentry business, or some raving pedophile tripping in a cave 700 years later claiming it was all really the work of a god who sent his minion named "Gabriel" to set the record straight.

Is there anything really more absurd then people killing each other over such nonsense?

I think you give yourself far too little credit.

:eek:lol:
 
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The universe is most definitely expanding. I could care less what one cosmologist says. Galaxies, stars and planets are moving further away from us. While dark energy is still a theory, it certaintly has some ground to stand on in regards to what is causing the universe to expand. Will the universe always be expanding? Who knows? It will either A) expand forever and eventually freeze out the universe (death by ice) B) will continue expanding, at an even faster pace, forever, until every atom is ripped apart or C) it will stop expanding, and begin to fall back in on itself (death by fire). C is most interesting, in that, one can theorize that if the universe collapses in on itself to an infinitely small point, the Big Bang may be a recurring cycle, and may be just one of an infinite number of universes. But now is not the time to discuss multiverse theories. :)
 
Let's revisit the post that you and I got started about.



I think you give yourself far too little credit.

:eek:lol:

Again, you are going to have to educate my feeble mind on your superior intellect, because I have absolutely no clue what you are trying to point out here.
 
I'll be honest with everyone, I've enjoyed reading a lot of this because its not the normal terribly ignorant debate on "religion vs science" that I'm used to (most religious people won't even discuss the possibility of evolution or most even basic scientific knowledge that might refute religion, and there are even less people with any mid to high end biology or chemistry knowledge). However there are a few things that I've seen that I can't quote all at once because they are on separate pages, so I have to address them a bit more generally than point by point, and some of the topics were dropped or forgotten, so I may be bringing up older closed points.

First, most biologists (at least the dozens I've learned under, worked with, and read) do not really believe in the separation of "Micro" and "Macro" evolution as two different things. Using those terms to mean two different things is something people who don't study the subject use quite often, however.

I had a research project that I began my sophomore year of college that I intend to continue into grad school, and what I did was stress microscopic organisms with anything from heat to cold, to derivatives of agent orange and more. Early on, the organisms died in almost every instance you would expect, which is what our evidence showed from other studies. However, after a few years using the offspring of many of these that did survive, they started to resist certain things quite a bit (I'm talking in the hundreds of generations). It got to where the test groups could more survive heat (whereas before they would more die). In essence, we sped up evolution on them in the form of resistance to heat.

Some would argue that is microevolution for two reasons. First, that is, biologically speaking, lightning fast for any form of evolution to occur (which is why I'm debating doing a thesis on it in grad school), second, it is micro because the organisms in question can still mate with non heat resistant organisms and produce viable offspring.

The fact is, it is neither micro or macro evolution. It is simply evolution, a change in the genetic code. Anyone who says one can occur (but not the other) needs imply be asked, "What logical, biological, or chemical roadblock can stop Micro from becoming macro? Or Macro into being broken into more measurable micro?"

Now to much less serious/more funny/logic thinking things over science:

I'm no marine biologist, but if God flooded the world, He HAD to do something for the fish and water animals, as either the world could've been all salt water or all fresh water (depending on how he wanted the rain to be composition wise), but in no way could both types of fish/animals survive, and if he did something to protect both, the bible would say so.

Lastly, the earth is about 4.5 BYO (the moon is about 4.15 BYO as far as I know) and the universe is roughly 14 BYO (the milky way closer to 13). With a few crazy exceptions in the scientific community, this is widely regarded as common sense to scientists. Disagreeing with that is like disagreeing with evolution (The 2+2 = 4 of biology) or chemical bonding (ditto, but for chemistry). There's no reason to do it because it won't do anything more than make most people laugh or completely disregard what you say.

That's not to offend anyone who doesn't believe in those things, simply to say that it's like playing poker but refusing straights and flushes count, so they shouldn't for anyone else either. You can still win occasionally with 2 pair or three of a kind, but you'll not last against guys who use the whole deck.

I don't know many people who flatly deny evolution. Some people just question if it's able to explain all variety of life on earth. The difference normally equated with "micro" or "macro" generally indicate changed within kind that have been observed, and changes from one kind to another. I understand that most darwinian evolutionists see it as all progression on the same scale.

It's fairly inane and unneeded to say that all darwinian evolutionists believe in darwinian evolution. Also, that they laugh at people who don't. There's nothing new there.

:hi:
 
Really, if you would have just admitted up front that it is all based on faith and personal experiences I wouldn't have interjected. Eventually that is the end game of these discussions anyway. To each their own. I'm sure there are many on here that would vouch for that with me.

I only chime in when it is passed off as rational or evidence based to believe in a creator, intelligent design, etc. It's faith. I don't find that (or you) ignorant at all, it is what it is.

In my experience of these debates irs never the Christians that have trouble admitting that it takes faith to believe what they believe.

Its always the atheist pseudo scientists. Always.

They will never admit that it takes immeasurable faith to believe that they came from a primordial soup of rockwash...and that amino acids lined up pefectly trillions of times consecutively...accidentally mind you...and formed incredibly complex DNA which...gasp....magically sprang to life.

That is not even science. Evolution beyond variation in species and certain observable micro examples (think drug resistant bacteria) cannot be reproduced and observed. In order t be a believer in evolution one must completely abandon the scientific method itself...that is not science. That is a belief system. A religion. Its also a lie...from the father of lies.

These pseudo scientist atheists will never admit it though. Never admit it actually takes more faith to believe rockwash accidentally made life than to believe a Creator did. Its ignorance.

And BTW you guys have been getting your "intellectual" azzes handed to you by OC...thought Christians were dumb? My aunt and uncle are both microbiologists...both UT grads...both devout Christians. Science and Christianity don't have to be at odds. Real science supports belief in God.
 
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In my experience of these debates irs never the Christians that have trouble admitting that it takes faith to believe what they believe.

Its always the atheist pseudo scientists. Always.

They will never admit that it takes immeasurable faith to believe that they came from a primordial soup of rockwash...and that amino acids lined up pefectly trillions of times consecutively...accidentally mind you...and formed incredibly complex DNA which...gasp....magically sprang to life.

That is not even science. Evolution beyond variation in species and certain observable micro examples (think drug resistant bacteria) cannot be reproduced and observed. In order t be a believer in evolution one must completely abandon the scientific method itself...that is not science. That is a belief system. A religion. Its also a lie...from the father of lies.

These pseudo scientist atheists will never admit it though. Never admit it actually takes more faith to believe rockwash accidentally made life than to believe a Creator did. Its ignorance.

And BTW you guys have been getting your "intellectual" azzes handed to you by OC...thought Christians were dumb? My aunt and uncle are both microbiologists...both UT grads...both devout Christians. Science and Christianity don't have to be at odds. Real science supports belief in God.

If life is found on other planets, especially microbial life, would it disprove God?
 
In my experience of these debates irs never the Christians that have trouble admitting that it takes faith to believe what they believe.

Its always the atheist pseudo scientists. Always.

They will never admit that it takes immeasurable faith to believe that they came from a primordial soup of rockwash...and that amino acids lined up pefectly trillions of times consecutively...accidentally mind you...and formed incredibly complex DNA which...gasp....magically sprang to life.

That is not even science. Evolution beyond variation in species and certain observable micro examples (think drug resistant bacteria) cannot be reproduced and observed. In order t be a believer in evolution one must completely abandon the scientific method itself...that is not science. That is a belief system. A religion. Its also a lie...from the father of lies.

These pseudo scientist atheists will never admit it though. Never admit it actually takes more faith to believe rockwash accidentally made life than to believe a Creator did. Its ignorance.

And BTW you guys have been getting your "intellectual" azzes handed to you by OC...thought Christians were dumb? My aunt and uncle are both microbiologists...both UT grads...both devout Christians. Science and Christianity don't have to be at odds. Real science supports belief in God.

I just...I can't even...
 
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Nevermind. F' it.

The problem is that atheists claim their belief requires no faith at all...that is science. That is an absolute lie. There is no scientific evidence for abiogenesis. None. So if you believe you came from a primordial soup...then hat is your belief system. Its not science. Period.

The problem is that garbage is passed off in textbooks as fact to imprsseionable kids in public school..lumped in as "evolution...the unquestionable absolute of science"...and then smartazzes like you try to take the supposed intellectual high ground and mock those who don't believe in it. Variation in species is real. Its also Biblical. Micro is real. It occurs and can be observed. If you believe that amino acids sprang to life.... then you either believe in God or magic. Take your pick. Takes faith either way as it will never eve b observed.

I have no problem admitting my beliefs require faith. You guys never do admit it....because its taboo. Its a load of crap...so make your little snide comments..like you don't know where to begin. I know the truth.

Yes or No: does believing in abiogenesis require faith?

Of course it does.

Does the scientific method allow for faith?

Of course not.

When you abandon the scientific method it is no longer science. Believing in Darwinian evolution or abiogenesis that cannot ever be observed is not science. It is a belief system that requires faith. Keep lying to yourself though.
 
If life is found on other planets, especially microbial life, would it disprove God?


IMO no..the it would neither disprove God in general or the God of the Bible specifically. I am nearly certain there is life on other planets...and think there are probably aliens too. Its definitely possible.

Neither are mentioned in the Bible so I assume we will never make any meaningful contact with either. Cars and airplanes aren't in the Bible either....but I can drive to the airport and hop on a plane listening to Charles Stanley. Think Gods cool with that.
 
The problem is that atheists claim their belief requires no faith at all...that is science. That is an absolute lie. There is no scientific evidence for abiogenesis. None. So if you believe you came from a primordial soup...then hat is your belief system. Its not science. Period.

The problem is that garbage is passed off in textbooks as fact to imprsseionable kids in public school..lumped in as "evolution...the unquestionable absolute of science"...and then smartazzes like you try to take the supposed intellectual high ground and mock those who don't believe in it. Variation in species is real. Its also Biblical. Micro is real. It occurs and can be observed. If you believe that amino acids sprang to life.... then you either believe in God or magic. Take your pick. Takes faith either way as it will never eve b observed.

I have no problem admitting my beliefs require faith. You guys never do admit it....because its taboo. Its a load of crap...so make your little snide comments..like you don't know where to begin. I know the truth.

Yes or No: does believing in abiogenesis require faith?

Of course it does.

Does the scientific method allow for faith?

Of course not.

When you abandon the scientific method it is no longer science. Believing in Darwinian evolution or abiogenesis that cannot ever be observed is not science. It is a belief system that requires faith. Keep lying to yourself though.

A scientific position based on evidence, open to change based on better evidence is what we are talking about. I doubt there is any evidence that would change your belief in God. If there is such evidence I would like to hear it. Otherwise this equating a belief in God with an accepted scientific position continually open to change is stupid. By definition, it isn't even the same thing.
 
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A scientific position based on evidence, open to change based on better evidence is what we are talking about. I doubt there is any evidence that would change your belief in God. If there is such evidence I would like to hear it. Otherwise this equating a belief in God with an accepted scientific position continually open to change is stupid. By definition, it isn't even the same thing.

Be the first "scientist" on VN brave enough to answer this simple yes or no question honestly without fear of being mocked by the others:

Does it require faith to believe in abiogenesis essentially coming from rainwater washing over rocks on a barren earth? Yes or no?
 
Again, you made the claim, and others asked for proof. And your answer is "figure it out" and "it's out there, go find it". That would be the same as someone saying "The Bible is false and it's been proven" and when asked for proof, said person says "It's been known for years" and "Go look it up".

No one is asking for one link that proves it all, but it seems if it's as common knowledge as you claim that you could provide at least one link that gets the ball rolling.









Geographic evidence of a world wide flood - Bing
 
Be the first "scientist" on VN brave enough to answer this simple yes or no question honestly without fear of being mocked by the others:

Does it require faith to believe in abiogenesis essentially coming from rainwater washing over rocks on a barren earth? Yes or no?

No.
 
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