VN, help! Manning vs. Brady (long but worth it)

#26
#26
BadJerry20 said:
I do find it funny when people say Brady is the greatest because of championships that he barely won, and the fact that he lost 2. I also find it humorous that PM didn't have the talent to win multiple Super Bowls even though that talent helped him get the best record numerous times. Both sides make strange arguments.
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Manning has never played on an NFL team that could win any other way besides Manning throwing the ball. He has never had good defenses, or a running game that was anything other than a changeup. And only being able to do one thing is usually deadly in the playoffs. I think it's generally a fair criticism, despite all their regular season success.

The funny thing about Brady is that he's become a much better QB as his career has gone on -- but the team quit winning titles. He was pretty much just a game manager type back at the beginning of their run.
 
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#27
#27
voladdiction said:
The debate is a good one. Brady is a fantastic QB and a guaranteed first ballot hall of famer. But I think Manning is better. Here's why...

(All stats are as of last season, btw)
1. Better completion %. Manning 65.2%. Brady 63.7%.
2. More passing yards. Manning 59,487. Brady 44,806 (Manning has played 2 more years, but Brady would have to average over 7,000 yards the next 2 years catch him
3. More TDs. Manning 436. Brady 334. (Brady would have to throw 51 TDs each year for the next 2 years to catch him)
4. More 4th quarter comebacks. Manning 38. Brady 26. (Brady would need 6 each year for the next 2 years to catch him)
5. More game-winning drives. Manning 49. Brady 37. (Brady would need 6 each year for the next 2 years to catch him)
6. More Pro Bowls. Manning 12 . Brady 8. (Brady can't catch him in the next 2 years)

And let's add some more overlooked data...
The Patriots without Brady in 2008. 11-5 record.
The Colts without Manning in 2011. 2-14 record.

Or consider this...
Broncos before Manning - 8-8.
Broncos after Manning - 13-3.
Demaryius Thomas before Manning - 2 seasons, only 834 receiving yards.
Demaryius Thomas after Manning - 1 season, 1,434 receiving yards.
Eric Decker before Manning - 2 seasons, 718 receiving yards.
Eric Decker after Manning - 1 season, 1,064 receiving yards.

Peyton Manning drastically improves his team and his players.

Peyton Manning is also...
1. the fastest ever to reach 50,000 yards passing.
2. the fastest ever to reach 60,000 yards passing.
3. the fastest ever to reach 4,000 completions.
4. the fastest ever to reach 400 passing TDs.

Ray Lewis, the greatest NFL LB said that Manning is the "greatest QB to ever play the game".

Manning has choked on some big stages. But so has Brady.
Brady has more rings. But rings are won by teams. Don't tell me that Jeff Hostetler, Trent Dilfer, and Doug Williams are equal in talent and value to Peyton Manning because they have the same number of Super Bowl wins.

Brady has also had a better HC (Belichek is perhaps the best ever). Don't think we'll be including Tony Dungy in that conversation - and definitely not John Fox.

Brady has had WAY BETTER defenses supporting him. During his Super Bowl runs, the Patriots D was outstanding. The Colts? Not so much.

I respect and admire Tom Brady. He is truly great. One of the best.
But Manning is the best ever.
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Just to be devils advocate here. Stats...Harrison+Wayne+Clark>>>>>T Brown, and whoever. Don't bring up Moss he wasn't there long enough. Brady's numbers are with some pretty average receivers. Though Brady had the better d to help him win playoff games. But PMs was good enough to.win a ton of regular season games.

What was the Colts record last year with Luck and basically the same 2-14 team returning?

Yes the Broncos improved during the season, but that 8-8 team won a playoff game.

D Thomas was widely seen as a Breakout star waiting to happen, PM definitely helped his progress. But he was already a big time talent, he just had the worst QB ever.

I won't even begin to debate coaches, cause its not even a little close.

Just trying to add some objectivity to.the argument.
 
#28
#28
Vercingetorix said:
Manning has never played on an NFL team that could win any other way besides Manning throwing the ball. He has never had good defenses, or a running game that was anything other than a changeup. And only being able to do one thing is usually deadly in the playoffs. I think it's generally a fair criticism, despite all their regular season success.

The funny thing about Brady is that he's become a much better QB as his career has gone on -- but the team quit winning titles. He was pretty much just a game manager type back at the beginning of their run.
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James was a pretty dang good back, but I agree for the most part. The d wasnt very good, though they did win the (second round I think) playoff game during the Super Bowl run. Though you are right 95% of the time it fell on PMs shoulders.

I agree with the Brady assessment, having Vinatiera to kick all those clutch kicks helped Brady a ton as well.

It's razor close IMO, just really depends on how you judge a QBs greatness honestly. Plus it's always easy to forget the old guys, plus passing numbers are ridiculously inflated these days.
 
#29
#29
Peyton will own all time td, pass yards, and wins before he is done. He will also have 2 sb. And the thing about Peyton, is when his team is terrible and he needs to carry them, he can. With arguably just as good of stats as with a good defense. He does not let the other team dictate the game. He plays great regardless. If the the other team wins, they have to play a+ on offense and defense to outlast Peyton. Tom Brady can't carry the team alone. Every year he's good, he has a solid nucleus of recievers and a ground game, plus a great defense. And he wouldn't have won a single Super Bowl without Adam vinatieri. Peyton wins no matter whose on his team. Brady wins when his team helps him. Better legacy: still to be told. Better qb: Peyton manning everyday(cerebrally and mechanically, despite a bum neck)
 
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#30
#30
Solid nucleus of receivers and a ground game? Without Google tell me 4 of Brady's receivers and 2 good rb's Brady had. People kill me with Brady had good wr and RB talk. Manning's skill position guys>>>>>Brady's by a lot. Brady's d, kicker and Coach>>>>>Manning's though by a lot.
 
#31
#31
BadJerry20 said:
Solid nucleus of receivers and a ground game? Without Google tell me 4 of Brady's receivers and 2 good rb's Brady had. People kill me with Brady had good wr and RB talk. Manning's skill position guys>>>>>Brady's by a lot. Brady's d, kicker and Coach>>>>>Manning's though by a lot.
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Hey don't you dare bad mouth Kevin Faulk! :)
 
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#35
#35
BadJerry20 said:
Solid nucleus of receivers and a ground game? Without Google tell me 4 of Brady's receivers and 2 good rb's Brady had. People kill me with Brady had good wr and RB talk. Manning's skill position guys>>>>>Brady's by a lot. Brady's d, kicker and Coach>>>>>Manning's though by a lot.
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uhhhh.... Wes Welker was a pretty good receiver, no?
Gronkowski not a bad TE? And what about Ben Watson?
Troy Brown and Deion Branch weren't chumps either.

Marvin Harrison hated contact. Reggie Wayne is a stud. Dallas Clark was a threat (but how well has he done without Manning - seriously?)

I really don't think Manning had an advantage here.
Just my opinion.
But the Patriots defense was the GREAT ADVANTAGE during the comparable years of Manning (with the Colts) vs. Brady.

Try another test.
Name 3 or 4 significant defensive players for the Colts during the mid 2000's. You can say Freeney. Bob Sanders doesn't really count cause he was hurt half the time.

But the Patriots had SO MANY guys who were real game changers on Defense: Teddy Bruschi, Vince Wilfork, Rodney Harrison, Willie McGinest, Asante Samuel, Richard Seymour
 
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#36
#36
Have had this debate with several close friends from New England in the military OP. Your arguement comes down to these two facts.

1. There were only a couple of years that the Colts defense was better than the Pats and the one year thet were significantly better is the year Peyton won the super bowl.

2. Peyton has been victimized by his teamates on two glaring occasions. One last year when the DB let the WR from Baltimore behind him when the game was over. The other was when Vanderjagt missed a FG in the AFC championship against the Steelers. Brady on the oter hand had game winning FGs by Vinatieri in all three of his Super Bowl years. Twice in the actual Super Bowl and that damn tuck rule game against the Raiders.
Truth is if the two QBs had traded Defenses and Kickers it would probably be 3 to 1 super bowls for Peyton.

Also, the whole story hasnt been written. If the Broncos win it all this year Peyton would have a .667 Super Bowl winning percentage to Brady's .600. If you get a wash on Super Bowls then the argument is over because statistically Manning is better.

If all else fails, Peyton is a great person and Brady is a Douche!
 
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#37
#37
voladdiction said:
uhhhh.... Wes Welker was a pretty good receiver, no?
Gronkowski not a bad TE? And what about Ben Watson?
Troy Brown and Deion Branch weren't chumps either.

Marvin Harrison hated contact. Reggie Wayne is a stud. Dallas Clark was a threat (but how well has he done without Manning - seriously?)

I really don't think Manning had an advantage here.
Just my opinion.
But the Patriots defense was the GREAT ADVANTAGE during the comparable years of Manning (with the Colts) vs. Brady.

Try another test.
Name 3 or 4 significant defensive players for the Colts during the mid 2000's. You can say Freeney. Bob Sanders doesn't really count cause he was hurt half the time.

But the Patriots had SO MANY guys who were real game changers on Defense: Teddy Bruschi, Vince Wilfork, Rodney Harrison, Willie McGinest, Asante Samuel, Richard Seymour
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How'd Deion Branch do in Seattle? Reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, and Dallas Clark are going to Canton, so I think they were pretty good. You're right about the defenses, although if not for the Colts d playing their asses off against Kansas City, they would have lost their first round game in 2006.
 
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#38
#38
He didn't win a title with Gronk, Watson or Welker. You said Brady won when he had talent at the skill positions, he didn't have those guys when he won. Try again. Still waiting on 2 rbs, here I'll help Corey Dillon.

Want more help SB wrs Brown, Branch, D Patten, Bethel Johnson. Rbs Marc Edwards, Faulk, Dillon, Fred McRary or some sh*t.

I said Brady had the better d. I never said PM had a good D. So that second part is a moot argument. Thanks for playing though.
 
#39
#39
BadJerry20 said:
Nobody in their right mind would argue Favre over Montana. What happened when Montana's underdog niners faced the Dolphins in the Super Bowl? And everyone was picking Miami. Idk in KC Joe led them to the AFC championship game including 2 come from behind victories in the playoffs. Btw KC hasn't won a playoff game since. The Niners won a single Super Bowl after Joe left, not sure that's rolling since he won 4.

Facts do suck.
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Dallas hasnt done anything since Aikman left so I say Aikman > Montana.
 
#42
#42
Fighting Possum said:
Have had this debate with several close friends from New England in the military OP. Your arguement comes down to these two facts.

1. There were only a couple of years that the Colts defense was better than the Pats and the one year thet were significantly better is the year Peyton won the super bowl.

2. Peyton has been victimized by his teamates on two glaring occasions. One last year when the DB let the WR from Baltimore behind him when the game was over. The other was when Vanderjagt missed a FG in the AFC championship against the Steelers. Brady on the oter hand had game winning FGs by Vinatieri in all three of his Super Bowl years. Twice in the actual Super Bowl and that damn tuck rule game against the Raiders.
Truth is if the two QBs had traded Defenses and Kickers it would probably be 3 to 1 super bowls for Peyton.

Also, the whole story hasnt been written. If the Broncos win it all this year Peyton would have a .667 Super Bowl winning percentage to Brady's .600. If you get a wash on Super Bowls then the argument is over because statistically Manning is better.

If all else fails, Peyton is a great person and Brady is a Douche!
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1. Yes the defense saved Manning during the wild card round when Ty Law picked him off three times.

2. First Vanderjagt's miss was in the divisional round not the AFC championship.If Bettis wouldn't have fumbled the ball on the two yard line, he never gets to attempt that kick. You're right Manning has been let down by teammates, but so has Brady. In the 2007 AFC championship game against the Colts, Reche Caldwell dropped a wide open pass on the sideline that would have been a touchdown. He scores, that puts the game away. How about super bowl 42. Patriots going for perfection. Everyone remembers the Manning to Tyree miracle. Just two plays before Asanti Samuel dropped an interception that would have sealed the game. How about two years ago in the Super Bowl when Wes Welker dropped a pass late in the fourth quarter that would have sealed the game? They've both been let down on multiple occasions, that's team sports.
 
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#44
#44
Before I start, I am a huge Peyton Manning fan. Ok, done.

1. Lets get one thing straight, Joe Montana is unanimously considered the greatest QB ever and that is not even debatable. Montana is 4-0 in super bowls, zero ints, enough said.

2. Peyton is 10x the QB Brady is???? Wow, sorry but thats wildly inaccurate. No offense to Manning but Brady has not had had the talent that Peyton has. I am sure most people can name Mannings starting receivers for his super bowl win. Can anyone name Brady's from his first win? Manning has had much better offensive talent and should have 3 rings by now but he doesn't.

3. So I have read people saying we can't judge on postseason victories? Yes we can. The NBA and MLB baseball do, so why not the NFL? Brady is leagues above Peyton in the postseason and its not even close. Championships are how great players are judged, thats the bottom line. If Michael Jordan didn't win 6 rings, he would not be listed ast the GOAT.

I am not belittling Manning because he is clearly one of the best to ever play. However to falsely say that he is 10x the QB Brady is, especially since Brady owns a way better postseason record is just ridiculous.
 
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#45
#45
Vercingetorix said:
Manning has never played on an NFL team that could win any other way besides Manning throwing the ball. He has never had good defenses, or a running game that was anything other than a changeup.
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Edgerrin James ran for more than 1200 yards 5 of his 7 years with Manning. 4 of those years he ran for more than 1500 yards. That's hardly a change-up. He's only the #11 all time rushing rb in NFL history.
 
#47
#47
peyton4heisman said:
OK. So, as Tennessee fans and football fans in general, we here all know that Peyton is 10x the QB than that of Tom Brady. I know it, you know it, and anybody who has eyes that has somehow not been brainwashed by the media knows it. So there you go. Simple. Right? WRONG!

I need your help VN. My best friend is from Beantown and is a huge NE Patriots fan. We talk on a daily basis, either on the phone, over text, and occasionally in person at the sports bar or over a game of cards (we now live 500 miles away.) For fun, we debate about anything and everything. I consider us both to be very witty and very good debaters. We debate anything from the superiority of the South (or North, if you are arguing for the wrong side), MJ vs. LBJ, college football vs NFL football, beer superiority, car brands, iPhone vs android, and so on and so on. I win sometimes, he wins sometimes, and it's all in a day's work.

But there is one topic that summons so much passion from both he and myself that any of the aforementioned topics of friendly debate inevitably almost always gives way to. Like any other topic is just the appetizer for what we both know is coming: tom brady vs. Mr. Peyton Manning.

The hard facts are this in a nutshell:
Peyton has way better overall career stats when you include the regular season.
Brady crushes Peyton in arguably the most important set of stats: postseason and Super Bowl rings

Although I tend to agree that in almost any other situation, a player's greatness can be summed up by postseason performance, I feel adamantly that the PM v TB competition is a bit of an anomaly. Yes, TB has 3 rings to PM's 1. Yes, TB has a much better playoff record than PM. BUT PEYTON MANNING IS 1Ox THE QB THAT TOM BRADY IS!

So you can imagine my frustration when inevitably this is thrown in my face. It has been his trump card for the entire 4 years we've known each other. I don't mind losing the occasional debate to my Mick best friend from Boston, MA. I DO mind consistently finding myself without any kind of significant comeback to his postseason statistics argument.

I've tried almost everything to beat him at this debate. Everything from Spygate to TB = system quarterback to coaching edges, to teammates. Even the "intangibles" argument bites me in the rear. "Winning in the playoffs, reaching deep down when it really matters and finding a way to grind out the win when it's do or die is not an intangible?"

So I know most of you on here are on my side with this one. If not, you, like my Beantown friend, are wrong. And not a VFL IMO. And a nega-vol. Also, I know most of you on here have found yourselves in this very same position at some time or the other. Maybe you are struggling with the same things I am.

So my plea is this VN. HELP! Give me some fool-proof ammunition that I can bring to the table and help me turn the tides on this cocky Yankee! It would help me out tremendously, and maybe this thread could even possibly be a go-to, upon which any Vol fan faced with the encounter of a ridiculous tom brady fan can call.

How do you win the PM vs. tb argument? Help!!!

Go Vols, GBO, Butch "gets it" BEAT SOUTH ALABAMA BY A HUNNERT!

:loco:

Mods, please let this thread remain in the football forum. Freak himself has admitted that he hasn't made up his mind on what to do with former Vols threads. I usually post in this forum, so I would greatly appreciate the feedback of those I'm used to shooting the chat with :hi:
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There is your problem.
 
#48
#48
volnukem said:
this. This. And this. My trump card in this argument will always be matt cassel's 11-5 record as the patriots qb in 2008 after brady went done for the season. How did the colts fair without manning? Game. Set. Match. Stfu brady lovers.
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this! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!
 
#49
#49
BigOrangeTrain said:
Before I start, I am a huge Peyton Manning fan. Ok, done.

1. Lets get one thing straight, Joe Montana is unanimously considered the greatest QB ever and that is not even debatable. Montana is 4-0 in super bowls, zero ints, enough said.

2. Peyton is 10x the QB Brady is???? Wow, sorry but thats wildly inaccurate. No offense to Manning but Brady has not had had the talent that Peyton has. I am sure most people can name Mannings starting receivers for his super bowl win. Can anyone name Brady's from his first win? Manning has had much better offensive talent and should have 3 rings by now but he doesn't.

3. So I have read people saying we can't judge on postseason victories? Yes we can. The NBA and MLB baseball do, so why not the NFL? Brady is leagues above Peyton in the postseason and its not even close. Championships are how great players are judged, thats the bottom line. If Michael Jordan didn't win 6 rings, he would not be listed ast the GOAT.

I am not belittling Manning because he is clearly one of the best to ever play. However to falsely say that he is 10x the QB Brady is, especially since Brady owns a way better postseason record is just ridiculous.
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Not taking your post as belittling Manning...You have some excellent points, but I want to weigh in on the talent surrounding Peyton. Marvin Harrison is sure fire HOF inductee and Reggie Wayne when finished jump starting Andrew Luck' s career will likely join him....But how stellar were their talents without Manning? There are singular receivers in NFL lore who would have been great no matter who flung the ball...Jerry Rice, Chris Carter, Randy Moss....terrellowens...modern examples Calvin Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald....Harrison and Wayne, while outstanding receivers, are not HOF level without PM elevating their stats IMO...along with Clark and Austin Collie, Indy's offensive talent has always been cited as Manning advantage...Indy's offensive line,with the exception of Tarik Glenn and Jeff Saturday, was pedestrian at best...especially when compared to New England's QB protectors. I will always maintain Branch, Givens and Bethel Johnson would have been cast as excellent targets for Manning had stars been aligned differently...Hey! Look at the time!...fun topic! :question: :cool2:
 
#50
#50
When arguing great quarterbacks I can't forget Elway. He led Denver to 3 superbowls without a defense or running game. Denver is in their best position to win since Elway retired. I really think Peyton could get 2 more rings before he's done.

When it comes to class Brady couldn't stand on Billicheck's shoulders and kiss Peyton's butt. Brady as a single man was fooling around with Bridgett Moynahan and denied it :rolleyes:. If had been me I would have shirts made and put it on billboards ;)
 
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