Da Reds thread

#10,276
#10,276
VOLinthaNATI said:
Um, they signed/extended him prior to the start of the 2012 season. You know, the 2012 season that started right after the 2011 season in which your comparison starts. What the hell am I missing here?
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You are right - brain fade. :hi:

Still, they took a flyer on him with only a couple of high quality seasons under his belt. I understand that if they didn't somebody else might and you would lose him.

The only thing I see when I see him bat now is a guy that is totally confused when he is going against solid pitching. He is back to moving his head around and not swinging level. He acts like he had a more serious ACL type injury as compared to a guy that just had a meniscus tear.
 
#10,278
#10,278
Vols4us said:
He is the gold standard.
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Trying to show how bad Votto's contract is by comparing him/his contract to Miggy, when Miggy signed his contract in 2008 and Vitto before 2012 proves nothing and again is pointless.
 
#10,279
#10,279
.

@StullySTL 40m

Just witnessed Brandon Phillips go off in CIN clubhouse, not pleased w some media members

@StullySTL 26m

BP took exception to question of his OBP/what he felt was negative coverage Said his peace but then crashed Dusty's presser for more f-bombs
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#10,282
#10,282
zjcvols said:
Trying to show how bad Votto's contract is by comparing him/his contract to Miggy, when Miggy signed his contract in 2008 and Vitto before 2012 proves nothing and again is pointless.
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The only pointless statements are the ones you make in attempts to refute truth. Truth is that the contract hamstrings a small market team from making moves when Votto does not earn his pay. It does not change the fact that Cabrera continued to produce at an as high or higher level after he got what was then the top of the market rate in 2008. Votto hasn't even come close - he declined.
 
#10,284
#10,284
005 said:
.
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Dat Dude fired up and I am sure is happy to be back in the 2 hole. He widens his strike zone to drive in runs for the good of the team, does his job well, and gets trashed in the media. Screw 'em. May be exactly what is needed to get this team rolling again.
 
#10,285
#10,285
Vols4us said:
The only pointless statements are the ones you make in attempts to refute truth. Truth is that the contract hamstrings a small market team from making moves when Votto does not earn his pay. It does not change the fact that Cabrera continued to produce at an as high or higher level after he got what was then the top of the market rate in 2008. Votto hasn't even come close - he declined.
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Hilarious how I "refute truth" when I bring up stats to show Votto's value and you bring up comparisons to Miguel Cabrera. Votto has been worth his contract so far. Not too mention he showed that Cincinnati was in business for the long haul, plus with TV money about to come in and MLB teams makin bank, Cincy will easily be able to afford it without it being hamstrung.

Anyways, Votto has lived up to his contract this season.
 
#10,288
#10,288
Let's see how bad Joey Votto has declined this season by MLB ranks:

WAR: 10th
wOBA: 7th
wRC+: 4th
OBP: 2nd
SLG: 21st
HR: 28th
BA: 14th

While still being a solid defensive player.

Right now the adage is that a 1 win player is worth a base salary of $5M. I don't necessarily agree with that, but if you went by that, Votto has been a 5.4 WAR player this season, so he's up to $27.5M in value if you went by that estimation.

I get if you don't like the length of the contract and thinks it will hurt the Reds in the long run financially (I disagree with part two of that argument). However, saying Votto has not been worth his contract this year is inaccurate, even if you believe in the dated "Well, well.........look at his RBI totals to determine true value" adage.
 
#10,290
#10,290
Vols4us said:
The only pointless statements are the ones you make in attempts to refute truth. Truth is that the contract hamstrings a small market team from making moves when Votto does not earn his pay. It does not change the fact that Cabrera continued to produce at an as high or higher level after he got what was then the top of the market rate in 2008. Votto hasn't even come close - he declined.
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agree 100%:good!:
 
#10,291
#10,291
zjcvols said:
Hilarious how I "refute truth" when I bring up stats to show Votto's value and you bring up comparisons to Miguel Cabrera. Votto has been worth his contract so far. Not too mention he showed that Cincinnati was in business for the long haul, plus with TV money about to come in and MLB teams makin bank, Cincy will easily be able to afford it without it being hamstrung.

Anyways, Votto has lived up to his contract this season.
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have to disagree with you here, i would rather take 3 players of choo's caliber or 2 players of phillips caliber than one joey votto any day for the same money. cincy is already hamstrung they didn't go out and get a leftfielder to compete this year. instead waited for luddy to come back when they knew he wasn't going to be much. regardless the tigers are a very good team, and the reds are a little above average. even the lexington hearld thinks there is something wrong with votto. it was on the front page of there sports section.
 
#10,292
#10,292
champyvol said:
have to disagree with you here, i would rather take 3 players of choo's caliber or 2 players of phillips caliber than one joey votto any day for the same money. cincy is already hamstrung they didn't go out and get a leftfielder to compete this year. instead waited for luddy to come back when they knew he wasn't going to be much. regardless the tigers are a very good team, and the reds are a little above average. even the lexington hearld thinks there is something wrong with votto. it was on the front page of there sports section.
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Not saying that you are wrong as it seems like a pointless argument to get into with both sides set in their ways, but with the way sports media has gone down hill I don't think citing someone in the media really adds much.
 
#10,296
#10,296
champyvol said:
have to disagree with you here, i would rather take 3 players of choo's caliber or 2 players of phillips caliber than one joey votto any day for the same money. cincy is already hamstrung they didn't go out and get a leftfielder to compete this year. instead waited for luddy to come back when they knew he wasn't going to be much. regardless the tigers are a very good team, and the reds are a little above average. even the lexington hearld thinks there is something wrong with votto. it was on the front page of there sports section.
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You are talking to a Saberista. It's "pointless" as he likes to refer to things. If you disagree with a self appointed Saberista guru you are pointless in your remarks. lol. There is something going on in Votto's head. He ain't right. He acts like there is a mental or drug problem at times, from my experience being around such conditions.

For over a year now Votto has proven himself to be overpaid by $5-8 mill/annually on his contract - which is the amount that could have been spent to bring in the talent they need to win it all. Dat Dude has produced 50% more RBI's and probably twice as much key offense this season for considerably less money.

That does not mean Votto cannot return to 2011 production at which time he would come closer to earning the contract. However, if I am Bob C and WJ I am making a blockbuster trade to get him moved while he is perceived to be a top player for some tougher guys that can help me rebuild the roster in several areas that need help. This team peaked last season while the Pirates and Cards are moving forward rapidly shoring things up for the stretch run.
 
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#10,297
#10,297
blupotato said:
Just saw Hamilton is among the call ups. I'm excited to see if he can help give us a little spark.
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The detractors will be out in full force with Billy. Great experience for him. I hope they keep taking their time developing him. When he gets comfortable at the plate against the pitching in the bigs, he is going to provide a big benefit of stressing the opponents' pitching staff, catchers and D's overall. He will give you the range you need in CF to get a big bopper in LF that might have less range. He's a big deal if handled right.
 
#10,298
#10,298
Vols4us said:
The detractors will be out in full force with Billy. Great experience for him. I hope they keep taking their time developing him. When he gets comfortable at the plate against the pitching in the bigs, he is going to provide a big benefit of stressing the opponents' pitching staff, catchers and D's overall. He will give you the range you need in CF to get a big bopper in LF that might have less range. He's a big deal if handled right.
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That's really all I would expect him to do is pinch run after the call up. Just being pesky on the base paths would help us a lot at certain times. But I agree. Don't need to rush him.
 
#10,299
#10,299
Vols4us said:
You are talking to a Saberista. It's "pointless" as he likes to refer to things. If you disagree with a self appointed Saberista guru you are pointless in your remarks. lol. There is something going on in Votto's head. He ain't right. He acts like there is a mental or drug problem at times, from my experience being around such conditions.

For over a year now Votto has proven himself to be overpaid by $5-8 mill/annually on his contract - which is the amount that could have been spent to bring in the talent they need to win it all. Dat Dude has produced 50% more RBI's and probably twice as much key offense this season for considerably less money.

That does not mean Votto cannot return to 2011 production at which time he would come closer to earning the contract. However, if I am Bob C and WJ I am making a blockbuster trade to get him moved while he is perceived to be a top player for some tougher guys that can help me rebuild the roster in several areas that need help. This team peaked last season while the Pirates and Cards are moving forward rapidly shoring things up for the stretch run.
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And you think baseball like it's the 1950's and are oblivious to any progress in baseball thinking while believing you are completely right. Even though you are criticizing your best player and one of the ten best players in baseball instead of looking at the other problems on your team.

Guess we all have our flaws.
 
#10,300
#10,300
champyvol said:
have to disagree with you here, i would rather take 3 players of choo's caliber or 2 players of phillips caliber than one joey votto any day for the same money. cincy is already hamstrung they didn't go out and get a leftfielder to compete this year. instead waited for luddy to come back when they knew he wasn't going to be much. regardless the tigers are a very good team, and the reds are a little above average. even the lexington hearld thinks there is something wrong with votto. it was on the front page of there sports section.
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Still think Votto is worth his contract. Ten years was too long.

And honestly I think you'll guys regret the Brandon Phillips contract more. And while left field is problematic right now, Ludwick had a good year in 2012 and every team would have brought him back after his season. You couldn't know about his hurting his shoulder.

JMO
 
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