Coach Martin vs. Coach Dooley (merged)

#651
#651
Jackson_Harris said:
Las Vegas
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It's a self-fulfilling premise.

If a team starts out the season poorly (underperforming), then odds makers are going to lower the bar the rest of the way and favor it to lose more games.

Does the fact that a coach meets these lowered expectations mean that he's doing a good job?
 
#652
#652
Velo Vol said:
It's a self-fulfilling premise.

If a team starts out the season poorly (underperforming), then odds makers are going to lower the bar the rest of the way and favor it to lose more games.

Does the fact that a coach meets these lowered expectations mean that he's doing a good job?
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Yes, I think it does.
 
#653
#653
Jackson_Harris said:
No, my expectation for the vol football team over the last two years was 13-13. If he didn't lose the one game and we win a small bowl, he is right there.

My expectation for this year is 9 wins.


Beef, Abe Lincoln was defeated in his first three attempts for political office. And he turned out to be one of our most acclaimed presidents.

If Dooley doesn't get it done this year, he is gone. You are not accomplishing anything by beefing about it right now. It will work itself out...one way or the other.
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This is a website designed for fans to discuss VOL sports. That's why I'm talking about it on here.
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#654
#654
VolBeef88 said:
This is a website designed for fans to discuss VOL sports. That's why I'm talking about it on here.
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So are you posting positive stuff over in the basketball forum these days?


What is your expectation for the new baseball coach for these first couple of years?
 
#655
#655
Jackson_Harris said:
With the exception of one game, Derek Dooley has won the ones he was supposed to win and lost the ones he was supposed to lose. So in terms of meeting expectations, Derek Dooley has actually come closer to meeting what I expected versus say Barack Obama. Of course, I had high hopes for Barack and he hasn't reached those lofty goals.
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Hell he even got style points in his losses. I believe he has posted two of the top five worst losses in history to Bama.
 
#656
#656
My bet is that he gets a 4th year with 7 wins. He started at way less than zero with the Spleffin/Philmer leftovers. And yes, the baseball team will rock starting this year. Baseball and basketball are much different than football. Much can be made up in one year in basketball and baseball. Not so in Football unless you sign 25 5 stars that all stay and excel for 4 years.
 
#657
#657
TNGlen said:
My bet is that he gets a 4th year with 7 wins. He started at way less than zero with the Spleffin/Philmer leftovers. And yes, the baseball team will rock starting this year. Baseball and basketball are much different than football. Much can be made up in one year in basketball and baseball. Not so in Football unless you sign 25 5 stars that all stay and excel for 4 years.
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You're right. It's really simple to win at basketball. That's why we've been so succesful over the past 20 or so years in basketball and not so in football.
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#658
#658
VolBeef88 said:
You're right. It's really simple to win at basketball. That's why we've been so succesful over the past 20 or so years in basketball and not so in football.
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I haven't seen anyone say it's simple to win in basketball, but you better believe during the last decade, we were much more relevant nationally in basketball than were in football.

Of course anyone trying compare coaching football to coaching basketball has to be pretty ignorant.
 
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#659
#659
2ironVol said:
I haven't seen anyone say it's simple to win in basketball, but you better believe during the last decade, we were much more relevant nationally in basketball than were in football.

Of course anyone trying compare coaching football to coaching basketball has to be pretty ignorant.
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What do you know, my stalker. But you're still missing the point. It's not comparing the coaching of one sport to the other. It's about meeting expectations. One coach has and one coach hasn't.
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#660
#660
VolBeef88 said:
What do you know, my stalker. But you're still missing the point. It's not comparing the coaching of one sport to the other. It's about meeting expectations. One coach has and one coach hasn't.
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i've never seen an instance like this where people want to ignore the point being made. people are going out of there way to avoid understanding your argument

someone can disagree, but the argument seems to keep morphing in order to avoid your point.

truth is, you make a valid point.

tennessee's basketball team has gotten better over the course of the year and deserves a tournament bid.

it's hard for me to point to one thing about the football team that has dramatically improved since dooley got there.
 
#661
#661
I'm sure this has been said already, but competition in SEC football >>>>>> SEC basketball.

That said, Coach Martin has done a great job. Great hire.
 
#662
#662
In order to make an accurate comparison you have to adjust for who they played, rankings/records of opponents, and the situation each inherited.
Martin inherited a better situation than Dooley. He got a team that could compete at a level of play that can win games. Dooley did not.
The SEC is an elite football conference and the football team has been undermanned to compete at that level. The SEC is not an elite basketball conference. Take Kentucky out of the picture and it's downright average, at best.
I am proud of the job Martin is doing and I hope he gets UT back into the late rounds of the tourney. I am also proud of what Dooley is doing with the football team. He's laying a solid foundation for the future.
To say one is a better coach is impossible to determine given the variables inherent to this comparison.
 
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#663
#663
99gator said:
i've never seen an instance like this where people want to ignore the point being made. people are going out of there way to avoid understanding your argument

someone can disagree, but the argument seems to keep morphing in order to avoid your point.

truth is, you make a valid point.

tennessee's basketball team has gotten better over the course of the year and deserves a tournament bid.

it's hard for me to point to one thing about the football team that has dramatically improved since dooley got there.
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Just curious, but would you expect Muschamp's team to improve if he had virtually no depth and I then told you that on top of that he lost his best QB, his best WR, his best LB, and his top safety?

And there has been great improvements since Dooley has been here. The depth and talent from when he got here to now is night and day. Many of the players greatly improved from year 1 to year 2 (Rogers, the pass blocking of the O-Line, Hunter when during the first two games, Bray, Rivera, etc...). Then you see that the freshmen that were forced to play went from being lost and committing a lot of bad plays to being good SEC players (AJ, Randolph, Maggitt, etc...).

Like I've always stated, I will not judge a coach that has had to deal with bringing a dart gun to a gun fight. He has a 1 year audition this year to show if he can coach or not because unless something crazy happens for the 2nd straight year, we got some big-time SEC talent with some depth.
 
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#664
#664
superdave1984 said:
In order to make an accurate comparison you have to adjust for who they played, rankings/records of opponents, and the situation each inherited.
Martin inherited a better situation than Dooley. He got a team that could compete at a level of play that can win games. Dooley did not.
The SEC is an elite football conference and the football team has been undermanned to compete at that level. The SEC is not an elite basketball conference. Take Kentucky out of the picture and it's downright average, at best.
I am proud of the job Martin is doing and I hope he gets UT back into the late rounds of the tourney. I am also proud of what Dooley is doing with the football team. He's laying a solid foundation for the future.
To say one is a better coach is impossible to determine given the variables inherent to this comparison.
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Again, if Martin walked into such a great job then why were we picked to finish 11 out of 12?
And to use you're argumenet about competitionlevel, why didn't DD have a winning record in the WAC?
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#665
#665
tvols75 said:
Just curious, but would you expect Muschamp's team to improve if he had virtually no depth and I then told you that on top of that he lost his best QB, his best WR, his best LB, and his top safety?

And there has been great improvements since Dooley has been here. The depth and talent from when he got here to now is night and day. Many of the players greatly improved from year 1 to year 2 (Rogers, the pass blocking of the O-Line, Hunter when during the first two games, Bray, Rivera, etc...). Then you see that the freshmen that were forced to play went from being lost and committing a lot of bad plays to being good SEC players (AJ, Randolph, Maggitt, etc...).

Like I've always stated, I will not judge a coach that has had to deal with bringing a dart gun to a gun fight. He has a 1 year audition this year to show if he can coach or not because unless something crazy happens for the 2nd straight year, we got some big-time SEC talent with some depth.
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you can see improvement without wins and losses being there. the tennessee baseball team will be like that once conference season starts. it may not show on the scoreboard, but you will see them play the game better.

with regard to florida, some things did clearly improve as the year went on. like the secondary.

some things didn't and you can bet, i am very worried about it and a lot of other people are. do i think they have world beaters at some positions? no. but, i bet they had someone on the roster who could play wr that should have been able to run a route, get open and catch the occasional pass. when you can't do that against vanderbilt, that's coaching. that's not lack of talent.

the same thing applies to parts of tennessee's squad. ok, so the offensive line isn't all world. fine. but, you can't hand the ball off and get yards against the little sisters of the poor. not just against conference opponents, but the ones you pay to come to neyland to lose. it can't get better from game 1 to game 12. this is just the most obvious example.

it's not a fluke that at florida, defensive personnel got better as the season went along and the offensive personnel didn't. there's no excuse for not being able to have a qb throw a pass 10 yards downfield and complete it to a wr by game 12 of the season. i don't care if you are starting 11 freshmen all season long

so, while the ceiling potential varies from player to player and unit to unit, you should be able to see improvement.

that didn't happen in a lot of areas at tennessee or at florida.
 
#666
#666
99gator said:
i've never seen an instance like this where people want to ignore the point being made. people are going out of there way to avoid understanding your argument

someone can disagree, but the argument seems to keep morphing in order to avoid your point.

truth is, you make a valid point.

tennessee's basketball team has gotten better over the course of the year and deserves a tournament bid.

it's hard for me to point to one thing about the football team that has dramatically improved since dooley got there.
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You're dealing with the "Defend Dooley No Matter What" crowd. In their eyes he can do no wrong. For example 7 coaches bail in one off season is a good thing because they sucked. Never mind DD hired them and when they came on board the same people on here hailed them as great hires and proof of DD doing a great job.
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#667
#667
99gator said:
you can see improvement without wins and losses being there. the tennessee baseball team will be like that once conference season starts. it may not show on the scoreboard, but you will see them play the game better.

with regard to florida, some things did clearly improve as the year went on. like the secondary.

some things didn't and you can bet, i am very worried about it and a lot of other people are. do i think they have world beaters at some positions? no. but, i bet they had someone on the roster who could play wr that should have been able to run a route, get open and catch the occasional pass. when you can't do that against vanderbilt, that's coaching. that's not lack of talent.

the same thing applies to parts of tennessee's squad. ok, so the offensive line isn't all world. fine. but, you can't hand the ball off and get yards against the little sisters of the poor. not just against conference opponents, but the ones you pay to come to neyland to lose. it can't get better from game 1 to game 12. this is just the most obvious example.

it's not a fluke that at florida, defensive personnel got better as the season went along and the offensive personnel didn't. there's no excuse for not being able to have a qb throw a pass 10 yards downfield and complete it to a wr by game 12 of the season. i don't care if you are starting 11 freshmen all season long

so, while the ceiling potential varies from player to player and unit to unit, you should be able to see improvement.

that didn't happen in a lot of areas at tennessee or at florida.
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Hard to disagree with any of this.
 
#668
#668
99gator said:
i've never seen an instance like this where people want to ignore the point being made. people are going out of there way to avoid understanding your argument

someone can disagree, but the argument seems to keep morphing in order to avoid your point.

truth is, you make a valid point.

tennessee's basketball team has gotten better over the course of the year and deserves a tournament bid.

it's hard for me to point to one thing about the football team that has dramatically improved since dooley got there.
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Shower discipline has gotten better and the bamboo has been watered.

What more could you ask for?
 
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#673
#673
Jackson_Harris said:
So what do you think we should do about all this stuff that you are complaining about Beef & Bassackwards B?
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I wasn't complaining in the thread. I was just discussing how we have 2 programs headed in different directions. I pointed out how one coach has exceeded expectations and one has not met them. The Defend Dooley No Matter what brigade turned it into what it has become.
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#674
#674
VolBeef88 said:
I wasn't complaining in the thread. I was just discussing how we have 2 programs headed in different directions. I pointed out how one coach has exceeded expectations and one has not met them. The Defend Dooley No Matter what brigade turned it into what it has become.
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Or maybe you are coming to a premature conclusion before enough pieces are in place to judge one of those coaches fairly.
 
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#675
#675
Cheese Donkey said:
Or maybe you are coming to a premature conclusion before enough pieces are in place to judge one of those coaches fairly.
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That's your opinion. I've seen enough. He had a losing record at La Tech and after 2 seasons he has a losing record at UT.
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