American Exceptionalism (split)

#127
#127
therealUT said:
I will grant that in a way relative to the rest of the world, America was in better standing prior to about 1970 than America is today; however, I will not grant that America was a better place, absolutely, prior to 1970 than it is today.
Click to expand...

There's a good book by Gerschenkron Economic Backwardness in Historical Perspective if you haven't read it. Addresses a pretty wide array of topics, primarily concerning European history. Probably the best way I've seen 'backwardness' as a quantified concept.
 
#129
#129
therealUT said:
I will grant that in a way relative to the rest of the world, America was in better standing prior to about 1970 than America is today; however, I will not grant that America was a better place, absolutely, prior to 1970 than it is today.
Click to expand...

That may be simply due to the notion that no matter how much damage we do to ourselves, 40 years is not enough time to reverse our trend upwards.
 
#131
#131
nbakerld said:
Exceptionalism is what allows Americans to turn a blind eye to our foreign policy and just assume that we are doing good. That's what America does. We do good. We're exceptional.
Click to expand...

So you disagree with foreign aid as a part of foreign policy?
 
#132
#132
BeecherVol said:
So you disagree with foreign aid as a part of foreign policy?
Click to expand...

Foreign Aid is a very complex topic, even on a merely theoretical level. First, it undermines capitalism, not only in the country receiving the aid, but even more so in the country sending the aid. Second, it provides a disincentive for countries to become self-reliant. Third, many of the countries that receive aid, receive it in part because their governments are not competent enough to increase domestic production; yet, we trust those incompetent governments to distribute the aid fairly.

These are just the beginning of the problems; the even bigger problems begin when the foreign aid budget is modified and decreased in certain countries and the backlash against the US begins.
 
#133
#133
therealUT said:
Foreign Aid is a very complex topic, even on a merely theoretical level. First, it undermines capitalism, not only in the country receiving the aid, but even more so in the country sending the aid. Second, it provides a disincentive for countries to become self-reliant. Third, many of the countries that receive aid, receive it in part because their governments are not competent enough to increase domestic production; yet, we trust those incompetent governments to distribute the aid fairly.

These are just the beginning of the problems; the even bigger problems begin when the foreign aid budget is modified and decreased in certain countries and the backlash against the US begins.
Click to expand...

Not talking logistics or who should get it for what reasons. If its given to help people in need is that AE?
 
#134
#134
BeecherVol said:
So you disagree with foreign aid as a part of foreign policy?
Click to expand...

Yes. I find it funny that those who disagree with domestic welfare support global welfare. I believe in individuals lending foreign aid (like in Haiti's case), not governments.
 
#138
#138
I believe in AE but as stated before it's a result of our system and how it was laid out constitutionally, not really us as a people. Even though we do have MANY flaws in our history, our country and the way we are set up is by and far the best and most superior by a long shot. My problem in the past has been "if only other countries follow our pattern they would be great," and while I still feel that is a noble thought, it just is not possible if the rest of the world is not on board. And yes I think any kind of Aid be it foreign or domestic should be done privately. Not only would it reach more people, but it would also have a much greater impact.

Am I saying that we should force every country to be just like us? Nope.

And someone also mentioned why every war has been an absolute disaster since WWII, and I lay that at the feet of the UN and its gross incompetency as an agency (AKA a typical bureaucracy) more than anything else. And you also realize we have been occupying the two worst offenders from that war and still are right? You do realize we had very strict rules about them having a military presence? And they pretty much had to follow our way of government, and they didn't turn out too bad.
 
#139
#139
BeecherVol said:
Not talking logistics or who should get it for what reasons. If its given to help people in need is that AE?
Click to expand...

Not sure how I would relate the two concepts - I think the notion of generosity in time of need is consistent with AE but that might be a stretch to link them.


therealUT said:
If it is done against the will of anyone in the process, I would say so.
Click to expand...

I don't understand this answer - it is AE if it was done against someone's will?
 
#140
#140
therealUT said:
Foreign Aid is a very complex topic, even on a merely theoretical level. First, it undermines capitalism, not only in the country receiving the aid, but even more so in the country sending the aid.
Click to expand...

I agree with the other comments about the problems with foreign aid but I'll have to think about this one. I guess it depends on the circumstances of the aid.

For example, I don't think sending medical and other immediate care to Haiti or Thailand after natural disasters undermines capitalism. ASAIK there is no general notion that individual acts of charity are inconsistent with capitalism.

If we are talking about ongoing aid to impoverished countries then I can see the argument as the aid becomes a relied upon but unearned source of revenue that creates a disincentive.
 
#141
#141
volinbham said:
I agree with the other comments about the problems with foreign aid but I'll have to think about this one. I guess it depends on the circumstances of the aid.

For example, I don't think sending medical and other immediate care to Haiti or Thailand after natural disasters undermines capitalism. ASAIK there is no general notion that individual acts of charity are inconsistent with capitalism.

If we are talking about ongoing aid to impoverished countries then I can see the argument as the aid becomes a relied upon but unearned source of revenue that creates a disincentive.
Click to expand...

Taking capital, via taxes, automatically undermines capitalism. To then take that stolen capital and not even spend it on things that can nominally be called to benefit the victims, further exacerbates the problem.
 
#142
#142
RespectTradition said:
Taking capital, via taxes, automatically undermines capitalism. To then take that stolen capital and not even spend it on things that can nominally be called to benefit the victims, further exacerbates the problem.
Click to expand...

Oh for God's sake - taxation in and of itself undermines capitalism?
 
#143
#143
volinbham said:
I agree with the other comments about the problems with foreign aid but I'll have to think about this one. I guess it depends on the circumstances of the aid.

For example, I don't think sending medical and other immediate care to Haiti or Thailand after natural disasters undermines capitalism. ASAIK there is no general notion that individual acts of charity are inconsistent with capitalism.

If we are talking about ongoing aid to impoverished countries then I can see the argument as the aid becomes a relied upon but unearned source of revenue that creates a disincentive.
Click to expand...

Foreign aid undermines domestic capitalism; the government is purchasing extremely large amounts of product from private producers leading to an artificial inflation of market prices. Their is little distinction between direct government subsidies (socialism) and government purchase of large amounts of product, sans a bid system.
 
#144
#144
nbakerld said:
Yes. I find it funny that those who disagree with domestic welfare support global welfare. I believe in individuals lending foreign aid (like in Haiti's case), not governments.
Click to expand...

Couldn't that be considered AE?

therealUT said:
If it is done against the will of anyone in the process, I would say so.
Click to expand...

Would it be considered AE if you did?
 
#145
#145
BeecherVol said:
Couldn't that be considered AE?



Would it be considered AE if you did?
Click to expand...

I think it would fall under the category of AE, in either case. However, I think it would only fall under the category of charity if it was not forced on or through anybody.
 
#146
#146
volinbham said:
I don't understand this answer - it is AE if it was done against someone's will?
Click to expand...

Exactly.
Not going along or not agreeing with the policy of it happening doesn't make it AE. It just means you don't agree with it/don't want to be apart of it.
 
#147
#147
volinbham said:
I don't understand this answer - it is AE if it was done against someone's will?
Click to expand...

To clarify, it is AE whether it is done with or against the will of all involved; it is only charity if done with the will of all involved.

Charity is not going to force itself on or through anyone. The actions inspired by the modern notion of AE, though, have shown that they will be forced on and through others.
 
#149
#149
BeecherVol said:
Couldn't that be considered AE?
Click to expand...

I guess if you are reaching. An individual doing it isn't the same as a nation doing it. If somebody says to himself, "I have to help because I'm an American, and we are held to a high standard." then I'd say that person is acting out of AE. When I do something charitable, the fact that I'm American never crosses my mind.
 
#150
#150
OrangeYankee said:
+1 ... Government is needed, albeit in a much smaller dose than we have now, but still necessary none the less. And how else would this Government be funded?
Click to expand...

That's debatable. The state was the #1 killer of the 20th century. We think that we need government protection, but if government is the #1 killer, I'm not sure we wouldn't be better off without it.
 
New posts
You must log in or register to reply here.
Advertisement





Back
Top