The Bachmanns and "reparative therapy"

#51
#51
droski said:
paul's economic theories are of gsvol territory. the thought of him being president is frightening.
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What do you mean? Ron Paul has more in common with your average democrat than he does with GSVol. Also the theory that Paul subscribes to is not some fringe ideology. Free marketeers win Nobel prizes, too.
 
#52
#52
volinbham said:
Not sure that libertarians are the most aggressive enforcers of law and order unless it's enforcing laws the favor individual rights.

I would imagine there is libertarian split on issues like immigration.
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Yes but aren't the Republicans split, too? Most libertarians are for protecting borders and they oppose amnesty specifically because they support the principle of rule of law. Most support a system where workers can easily come and go with visas or even a system where it's fairly easy to get citizenship.
 
#53
#53
nbakerld said:
Yes but aren't the Republicans split, too? Most libertarians are for protecting borders and they oppose amnesty specifically because they support the principle of rule of law. Most support a system where workers can easily come and go with visas or even a system where it's fairly easy to get citizenship.
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I would agree. Though there is too much "they terk er jerrrbs!" for this to be implemented any time soon.
 
#54
#54
nbakerld said:
What do you mean? Ron Paul has more in common with your average democrat than he does with GSVol. Also the theory that Paul subscribes to is not some fringe ideology. Free marketeers win Nobel prizes, too.
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he wants to eliminate the fed and restore the gold standard. i can't imagine two worst things economically to do. he's a nutjob.
 
#57
#57
droski said:
eliminating the fed takes away our ability to use monetary policy. restoring the gold standard also does this and it forces us to buy trillions of already masively overpriced metals.
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Say we just froze the money supply and eliminated the fed. Why is eliminating our ability to manipulate the currency a bad thing? You believe in a free market, right? A free market doesn't exist when planners can manipulate the money supply and interest rates. Interest rate manipulation is akin to setting prices in the market place. I can't believe any free-market supporter could be educated on the matter and still support interest rate manipulation.

I'm probing because when I hear people call Ron Paul a "nutjob" over his stance on the Fed, 95% of the time they haven't really read much about it. I challenge you to read a pro-gold standard book and come away calling him a "nutjob".
 
#59
#59
KiffinKiller said:
Isn't our control the only thing keeping us afloat? I may be wrong.
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Some people may believe that. I don't for a second. Our control is what is killing us, IMO. The housing bubble does not happen without the Federal Reserve. The Fed is a tool that has allowed us to accrue a crippling debt. It's allowed us to pay for wars without direct taxation (if wars were paid for with direct taxation, there would be no wars). Etc.
 
#60
#60
Romney is the one GOP candidate that I am almost certain cannot beat Obama. He is this year's Bob Dole. If you can vote for Obama or someone whose policies you cannot distinguish from Obama's but who is much less likeable... there's no reason not to vote for Obama.

All the condemnations of Bachmann from our "tolerance" sensitive people is laughable. This is WORSE than the Obama must be Muslim stuff.

She won't be elected. The character assassination of the left will ensure she isn't. They've been terrified of the "next Reagan for over 20 years now. Anyone who is genuinely conservative and potentially charismatic enough to get things done... will be demonized at all costs... the first cost is usually the truth through some exaggeration.
 
#61
#61
nbakerld said:
Say we just froze the money supply and eliminated the fed. Why is eliminating our ability to manipulate the currency a bad thing? You believe in a free market, right? A free market doesn't exist when planners can manipulate the money supply and interest rates. Interest rate manipulation is akin to setting prices in the market place. I can't believe any free-market supporter could be educated on the matter and still support interest rate manipulation.

I'm probing because when I hear people call Ron Paul a "nutjob" over his stance on the Fed, 95% of the time they haven't really read much about it. I challenge you to read a pro-gold standard book and come away calling him a "nutjob".
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how is it a free market if we are on the gold supply? the very thing that stop us from getting out of the great depression is the very thing paul is suggesting. manipulating interest rates works and it resulted in the greatest economic expansion in world history in the us from 1960s-2000.

i'm well aware of the theory on keeping the gold standard. it's a very narrow minded view of the world and ignores a global economy and the current size of the us economy. it's just not feasable. there's a reason why no major economic power does this.
 
#62
#62
KiffinKiller said:
Isn't our control the only thing keeping us afloat? I may be wrong.
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Freedom works. It has everywhere and every time it has been tried. Conversely, every system of tight central control ever devised has left to slavery, economic failure, or both.

FWIW, you cannot have civil freedom and guarantee of rights without property rights. If someone including gov't can take your property and means of survival unless you behave as they like... then you effectively have no freedom of any sort. You simply have a license that can be revoked at the whim of those with power.
 
#63
#63
nbakerld said:
Some people may believe that. I don't for a second. Our control is what is killing us, IMO. The housing bubble does not happen without the Federal Reserve. The Fed is a tool that has allowed us to accrue a crippling debt. It's allowed us to pay for wars without direct taxation (if wars were paid for with direct taxation, there would be no wars). Etc.
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bubbles have happened throughout human history. it's part of the human existance. i can't imagine how nuts govt spending would go if we eliminated the fed.
 
#65
#65
droski said:
how is it a free market if we are on the gold supply? the very thing that stop us from getting out of the great depression is the very thing paul is suggesting. manipulating interest rates works and it resulted in the greatest economic expansion in world history in the us from 1960s-2000.

i'm well aware of the theory on keeping the gold standard. it's a very narrow minded view of the world and ignores a global economy and the current size of the us economy. it's just not feasable. there's a reason why no major economic power does this.
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I am having trouble making sense of the first bolded statement.

It's the same reason there's no such thing as a truly free market. Government likes control.

You haven't really asserted why it's bad. You've just said it's "narrow-minded", "not feasible", etc. You haven't said why it doesn't work. You haven't said why it's not feasible. You haven't explained how manipulating interest rates resulted in a 40 year boom.

So you've read pro-gold standard literature?
 
#66
#66
droski said:
bubbles have happened throughout human history. it's part of the human existance. i can't imagine how nuts govt spending would go if we eliminated the fed.
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What?!!!

And the worst bubbles have happened with a central bank.
 
#68
#68
Shy, be honest.

Is Romney being a Mormon a factor for you, at all, as to whether you would support him in the primary?

Or the general?
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#69
#69
nbakerld said:
I am having trouble making sense of the first bolded statement.

It's the same reason there's no such thing as a truly free market. Government likes control.

You haven't really asserted why it's bad. You've just said it's "narrow-minded", "not feasible", etc. You haven't said why it doesn't work. You haven't said why it's not feasible. You haven't explained how manipulating interest rates resulted in a 40 year boom.

So you've read pro-gold standard literature?
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well first off there isn't enough gold in teh world available for an economy of the size of the us to keep reserves to back our money. second it completely takes away any ability to manipulate our economy. and don't think that we wont inflate the crap out of the dollar/gold when we are buying the gold to do it. you may think this is a bad thing, but i assure you if bernake doesn't cut rates to zero in teh past 3 years that we would be in much worst shape than today. manipulating interest rates have made recessions shallower than they were before we started doing it. that is fact.

yes i've read it and frankly i wonder if anyone writing it has even an elementary understanding of economics.

nbakerld said:
What?!!!

And the worst bubbles have happened with a central bank.
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this is absurd. what's your evidence of that? the roaring 20s weren't a pretty big bubble?
 
#73
#73
droski said:
well first off there isn't enough gold in teh world available for an economy of the size of the us to keep reserves to back our money. second it completely takes away any ability to manipulate our economy. and don't think that we wont inflate the crap out of the dollar/gold when we are buying the gold to do it. you may think this is a bad thing, but i assure you if bernake doesn't cut rates to zero in teh past 3 years that we would be in much worst shape than today. manipulating interest rates have made recessions shallower than they were before we started doing it. that is fact.

yes i've read it and frankly i wonder if anyone writing it has even an elementary understanding of economics.

this is absurd. what's your evidence of that? the roaring 20s weren't a pretty big bubble?
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There's $8 trillion in gold in the world. I believe our currency is at $2 trillion. All I push for is freezing the money supply.

Fact? A causal relationship in this instance can't even be proven as fact.

The Federal Reserve has been around since 1914.
 
#75
#75
lawgator1 said:
Shy, be honest.

Is Romney being a Mormon a factor for you, at all, as to whether you would support him in the primary?

Or the general?
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Romney being a pretty typical country club Republican is why I can't support him. He's a "me too" liberal who found being pro-choice, pro-gov't healthcare, pro-regulation, etc inconvenient when he started trying to become President.

The GOP's best shot is Perry. Others would make good Presidents but would not make it through the demagogury of the MSM. Bachmann is less "right" than Obama is "left". His "vetting" was VERY polite from the MSM. Bachmann's will not be.
 
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