Atheists & Spiritualists = Equal Fools

Silly. Dis/Prove the existence of unicorns. If somebody wants to believe unicorns exist, I challenge you to disprove it. Likewise, if somebody doesn't believe in unicorns, they would be hardpressed to prove it to somebody that does.

Point being, it isn't the actual belief that matters, it is the reasons we have for believing what we do. That is the point of these discussions, whether we know it or not. We provide reasons for and against what we believe/disbelieve with regards to the supernatural. I think you miss the point here.

You can believe it silly, or not.

Although I understand the point your're making (the absence of evidence is not always evidence of absence), and while some correlation exists (i.e. mythical creature to deiitistic figures / forces), your analogy breaks down on this single point:

No one is truly arguing for the existence of unicorns, and even if they were, the correctness of that position is virtually of complete inconsequence to mankind in general, either in this life or hereafter (if you believe in that sort of thing).

Sure, while proving the existence of unicorns might make our viewing of the My Little Pony a more discerning experience, or may single-handedly rejuvenate the lagging Petting Zoo industry, it matters little beyond that. If at all.

Conversely, the question of God's existence is quite literally and inarguably, preeminent to all else. The effective and empirical proof - or disproof - of that notion transcends everything from evolution to denomination. It is not a central or even primary consideration - it is THE question. And any attempt to subjugate that question (however intellectually satisfying or emotionally pleasing it may be to anyone who believes they've solved it to a point of certainty) beneath any one of a billion questions of significantly lesser importance is ignorant at best, and foolish, at worst.

There are those (spiritualists) who actually purport the existence of God - who, in most religious beliefs is a true, living deity who not only created, but continues to interact with this world, and (some say will judge it and/or return). It shapes their identity, their worldview and controls (read: seeks, demands, requests or desires, again, depending upon their respective beliefs) their actions. Moreover, their beliefs not only affect their lives here and now, but will impact both them - AND YOU - for all of eternity, hereafter.

There are others (atheists) who, if they were being intellectually honest, believe that such a notion is absolute and utter nonsense - that no such deity has / does or is even possible to exist. While many atheists (perhaps moreso than not, at least from those I know) will readily concede a tolerance for all religious beliefs, such is typically only a measure of goodwill, as they understand that the (false) notion of this deity provides some "good" (i.e. it comforts, it engenders charity, etc.) to its believers, and by and large, society as a whole (the atrocities committed by the respective religions - as certain as they are - would not tip the scales of its incalcuable "good", were it multiplied a million times over, and more).

So, we've got two groups. Neither inherently evil, stupid, or ignorant (reread the many definitions of "fool" before you make a point about my OP, please. It'll save us both some time) - but who have diametrically opposed and mutually exclusive beliefs.

One says God exists. The other says s/he does not.

Say it as sweetly or as sternly as you might prefer - but one is right, and the other is wrong. Period.

While both sides have become experts at the destruction of the opposing argument, this often masks their respective and complete inabilities to effectively and empirically prove their own.

In fact, I believe that both sides should be in lock-step agreement on this one unmitigatable truth, if no others, it cannot be effectively proven in either direction, and it never will be.

Instead, and in failing that, what we are left with is a dishonest discourse of presumptively invalid "evidences" being purported by those charlatans on either side who are (again) foolish enough to believe that they have somehow managed to solve the unsolvable question of God's non/existence by a process of reverse-engineering via the refutation of the opposing argument - and which is devoid of any acknowledgement of their inability to prove their own.

If it is to be an honest and/or constructive exhange of ideas, it cannot begin with a presumption of correctness in personal beliefs (i.e. I know God is real because I believe / feel it, I do not believe God is real and should be left entirely unconsidered). Instead, it must begin with each sides respective acknowledgement as to the preeminence of the question of God's existence (name a subject it wouldn't influence), and in their utter bankruptcy to effectively and empirically prove it, in either direction. Then, and only then, can a true search beginm as doing otherwise is not only dishonest, but in fact, foolish.

That is, if its not too silly of an idea.

IMO JMO TIFWIW IMHO.
 
Making a myth more mythical...

Myth? Challenge for you. What book from antiquity has the most and earliest manuscript support... and how does its support compare to #2?

Does something being written make it true? No.

Does something being written as a historical record make it true? No.

But it is much MORE proof than simply assuming it isn't true with no proof at all.
 
Re-read my OP.

I'm not asking anyone to disprove the other side - we've got that in spades - I'm saying to prove what it is that you believe, whatever that might be.

I want someone to effectively and empirically dis/prove the existence of God.

Can you?
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My response was written because you made assumptions that reveal naturalistic bias or influence.

To answer your question, I will give you one. Most agree that the universe had a beginning. Logic tells us that for every effect there is an equal or greater cause. For the universe to have literally had a beginning, there had to be a prime cause that somehow lies outside of what we consider "natural". A "supernatural" cause.

Couple that with the NT record which is incredibly well supported by more than 30,000 manuscripts and fragments that claims that this supernatural cause assumed a human form to meet with and reconcile his greatest creation.

I made some assumptions here based on my overarching worldview... but my continuing point is that EVERYONE does. You ask for proof or disproof of God... why not ask for proof or disproof of naturalism which forms the foundational assumption for evolution?
 
My response was written because you made assumptions that reveal naturalistic bias or influence.

To answer your question, I will give you one. Most agree that the universe had a beginning. Logic tells us that for every effect there is an equal or greater cause. For the universe to have literally had a beginning, there had to be a prime cause that somehow lies outside of what we consider "natural". A "supernatural" cause.

Couple that with the NT record which is incredibly well supported by more than 30,000 manuscripts and fragments that claims that this supernatural cause assumed a human form to meet with and reconcile his greatest creation.

I made some assumptions here based on my overarching worldview... but my continuing point is that EVERYONE does. You ask for proof or disproof of God... why not ask for proof or disproof of naturalism which forms the foundational assumption for evolution?

He did ask. He asked for definitive proof either way.
 
Are you looking for answers TD, or just tired of hearing from both sides?

Initially, just expressing frustration at the incessant arguing / attempts to convert one another from two groups representing equally improvable sides.

Now, I'd like to see if either side is capable of empirically and effectively proving the correctness of their respective stance - whichever it is - or simply admit that neither can, nor will be able to do so.

Until the question of God's existence is settled, everything else is secondary. If it cannot be settled, I'd like to know what that might mean, if anything or to anyone.

There's no greater or more secretive reasoning at play, than that.
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Initially, just expressing frustration at the incessant arguing / attempts to convert one another from two groups representing equally improvable sides.

Now, I'd like to see if either side is capable of empirically and effectively proving the correctness of their respective stance - whichever it is - or simply admit that neither can, nor will be able to do so.

Until the question of God's existence is settled, everything else is secondary. If it cannot be settled, I'd like to know what that might mean, if anything or to anyone.

There's no greater or more secretive reasoning at play, than that.
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Interesting question.

In one case, it would mean absolutely nothing, to absolutely everyone.

In the other case it means absolutely everything, to absolutely everybody.

From my understanding.
 
If I believe Islam is true, then I have to believe that 2.2 billion Christians will suffer in hell for eternity. And if I believe Christianity is true, then I have to believe 1.5 billion Muslims will suffer in hell for eternity. But if I believe neither is true, then I don't have to believe anyone has to suffer in hell at all.
 
If I believe Islam is true, then I have to believe that 2.2 billion Christians will suffer in hell for eternity. And if I believe Christianity is true, then I have to believe 1.5 billion Muslims will suffer in hell for eternity. But if I believe neither is true, then I don't have to believe anyone has to suffer in hell at all.

Thats kinda what I meant.

If there is no God, it really means nothing to everyone.
If there is, it means everything to everybody. Choosing to not believe is the separation. It encompasses all of man.
 
If I believe Islam is true, then I have to believe that 2.2 billion Christians will suffer in hell for eternity. And if I believe Christianity is true, then I have to believe 1.5 billion Muslims will suffer in hell for eternity. But if I believe neither is true, then I don't have to believe anyone has to suffer in hell at all.

Good point, but your comparitive example (Christians to Muslims) presupposes that the question of God's existence has been settled, and we only now need to decide which religious sect has the truest, best or most accurate understanding of God.

But it hasn't been settled at all, really.

Before we can begin to decide which religion has the best and truest understanding of God - shouldn't we first seek to know if s/he existed, at all?

P.S. - As to your point....bear in mind that your "anyone" is, in fact, "everyone" - including you and I, as we would not be excluded from a similiar end.

Secondly, while your statement is undoubtedly figurative, please also know that there are tens of millions of others who would disagree with any assertion that either the Muslims or Christians had the eternal after-life market covered, so to speak. Perhaps they are both wrong, or each contain some truth - or that it lies somewhere in between?
 
Interesting question.

In one case, it would mean absolutely nothing, to absolutely everyone.

In the other case it means absolutely everything, to absolutely everybody.

From my understanding.

That's a perfect way of saying it - and yet again, only further emphasizes the imperative and over-arching nature of the question.

It is of supreme importance to everyone and everything - or of no importance to anyone.

It cannot be both. But whichever it is, it impacts everything, and everyone - without any exceptions, whatsoever.
 
My response was written because you made assumptions that reveal naturalistic bias or influence.

To answer your question, I will give you one. Most agree that the universe had a beginning. Logic tells us that for every effect there is an equal or greater cause. For the universe to have literally had a beginning, there had to be a prime cause that somehow lies outside of what we consider "natural". A "supernatural" cause.

Couple that with the NT record which is incredibly well supported by more than 30,000 manuscripts and fragments that claims that this supernatural cause assumed a human form to meet with and reconcile his greatest creation.

I made some assumptions here based on my overarching worldview... but my continuing point is that EVERYONE does. You ask for proof or disproof of God... why not ask for proof or disproof of naturalism which forms the foundational assumption for evolution?

FWIW, I don't believe the universe had a "beginning" in the traditional sense. Some theoretical physicists speculate the same. Afterall, we are talking about the nature of time itself...which is beyond the comprehension of any of us at this point. Presupposing a "begining" and "end" is premature IMO.

Carry on.
 
Thats kinda what I meant.

If there is no God, it really means nothing to everyone.
If there is, it means everything to everybody. Choosing to not believe is the separation. It encompasses all of man.

So you're an advocate of Pascal's Wager?
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Good point, but your comparitive example (Christians to Muslims) presupposes that the question of God's existence has been settled, and we only now need to decide which religious sect has the truest, best or most accurate understanding of God.

But it hasn't been settled at all, really.

Before we can begin to decide which religion has the best and truest understanding of God - shouldn't we first seek to know if s/he existed, at all?

P.S. - As to your point....bear in mind that your "anyone" is, in fact, "everyone" - including you and I, as we would not be excluded from a similiar end.

Secondly, while your statement is undoubtedly figurative, please also know that there are tens of millions of others who would disagree with any assertion that either the Muslims or Christians had the eternal after-life market covered, so to speak. Perhaps they are both wrong, or each contain some truth - or that it lies somewhere in between?

That wasn't an original thought, just a copy/paste job that I did and thought it fit fairly well. Your points make complete sense.

I can't prove 100% to anyone whether one side is right or wrong. I just choose to believe what I do based on the facts I've seen and the philosophical questions I've encountered.
My militancy against religion stems from the hatred the two major religions have for each other and anyone else that doesn't believe what they believe. It's detrimental to society and needs to stop.
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Why are we assuming only one god, in this question? The challenge should be, "prove there are any gods," and "prove there are no gods," respectively.
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Why are we assuming only one god, in this question? The challenge should be, "prove there are any gods," and "prove there are no gods," respectively.
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For the purposes of this question, "God" is intended to mean a deiitistic being - but it could certainly be, "beings", as well - as no specific emphasis toward any particular school of thought, belief system or specific religious affiliation is intended.

It could just as easily be the Judeo-Christian God (Jehovah) as Adi Purush, Tenri-O-No-Mikoto or Barry Manilow.

Sorry I wasn't more specific.
 
FWIW, I don't believe the universe had a "beginning" in the traditional sense. Some theoretical physicists speculate the same. Afterall, we are talking about the nature of time itself...which is beyond the comprehension of any of us at this point. Presupposing a "begining" and "end" is premature IMO.

Carry on.

That's definitely interesting, but before we worry about how the universe began (or not), shouldn't we first decide what role God might have played in it, if any at all?

And even before, wouldn't the answer to that question be predicated on the foundational question of whether God exists, or not?

I believe that you are one of the better and more outspoken voices of those atheistic members here -and please correct me if I am wrong - and was wondering if you might be able to shed some light on the question of God's existence?

Or more simply, can you effectively and empirically prove that God does not exist, and if not now, when might you be able to do so?
 
So you're an advocate of Pascal's Wager?
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From my understanding he limits God to just living right in case there is a God. I don't follow that idea altogether.

Some have suggested that he was referring to God specifically as Christs father. If thats the case with my limited knowledge of his writings it seems he is leaving out one very crucial point.
 
He did ask. He asked for definitive proof either way.

There is none.

There is also no "definitive" proof for the naturalistic assumptions that atheists and evolutionists operate under. You cannot prove that the eastern mystics are wrong about the natural world being nothing more than the imaginings of our collective consciousness.

There is certainly no definitive proof of spiritualism.

Whether you start from the assumption that only the natural world is real, that only the spiritual world is real, or that both are real... you still start from an assumption and position of faith. There is no "definitive" proof for any of these starting assumptions.
 
I think that's much of the point. People argue fervently, yet fail to recognize the holes in their own argument.
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Initially, just expressing frustration at the incessant arguing / attempts to convert one another from two groups representing equally improvable sides.

Now, I'd like to see if either side is capable of empirically and effectively proving the correctness of their respective stance - whichever it is - or simply admit that neither can, nor will be able to do so.

Until the question of God's existence is settled, everything else is secondary. If it cannot be settled, I'd like to know what that might mean, if anything or to anyone.

There's no greater or more secretive reasoning at play, than that.
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I can only offer what I have and be honest about it. I have a reasonable faith. It is consistent with itself and with what we "know" about the world in which we live. It answers the fundamental questions that we all eventually ask: Where did I come from? Why am I here? How am I redeemed? Where am I going? How and why should I relate with others? What are my responsibilities? Who am I accountable to? What is morality, good/bad, right/wrong?... and Does anything really matter?

IMHO, if you continue to ask "why" with spiritualism or naturalism you eventually come to a place where there is no satisfying answer... there is no good reason. Ultimately if we are all just highly evolved animals going nowhere past this life then nothing really matters. If we are all part of some collective consciousness where are destinies are far more the product of others than ourselves and the best state we can hope for is nothingness then nothing really matters.

OTOH, if we are beings with individual soul liberty and purpose who will answer to a moral judge so that we might be rewarded or punished properly for the spiritual decisions made in this material life... then EVERYTHING matters.

I find that far more satisfying and reasonable.
 
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