New York City

#7,576
#7,576
EasternVol said:
That's capitalism too. What does it have to do with freedoms though?
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how either goes about it.

socialism will dictate what economic mobility/equality you have. even to the point of impeding you. even to the point of actively taking away from you. at the very least the past owners of the means of production are having their private property stolen from them. the government tells you what you can have, and largely even what you can do.

capitalism itself won't stop you, it also won't help you. you have the freedom to succeed, and to fail.
 
#7,577
#7,577
luthervol said:
There has been great effort from the right-wing propaganda machine to condition people to feel that way.
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Your comparison of our founders to those who recently migrated and have not assimilated is the brain function of primitive man and/or the evidence of failed institutions which you are part of.
 
#7,578
#7,578
EasternVol said:
True, it does fail by definition on property rights. Otherwise how is it authoritarian? I'm thinking of the rights in our first ten Amendments.
We've got some pretty inane business licensing requirements ourselves.

Don't we see that in the US?

What if it's a representative democracy?
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which shows how we aren't capitalistic. or anywhere particularly close.

socialism enforces some level of equality, which would be restrictive of the 1A.
property rights covers the 2A, 3A, 4A, 9A, and probably the 10A.
socialism will tend to struggle with the 5A, and 6A, when the greater good starts to override individual protections. that would also pretty quickly intrude on 9 and 10 too.

a socialist society/economy doesn't require a full blown authoritarian government; but it also is compatible with a full blown authoritarian government. something that capitalism is not.
 
#7,579
#7,579
luthervol said:
There has been great effort from the right-wing propaganda machine to condition people to feel that way.
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What part?

Because people do tend to bring what they know to the place they go.

For instance we've seen a large influx of Californians to middle Tennessee. In my little country road in sticks we have a couple that moved from California, they are the exception in that they appreciate the slow pace and small community.

But by and large when people come from one place to another they bring their politics and culture with them. At least to some extent. It's like what happens when hot and cold water meet, they both give and take from each other, they even out over time but both are changed.
 
#7,580
#7,580
n_huffhines said:
We're basically in agreement over ideas and what works best, but I do think the semantics on this matter. I'm not calling you out or saying you are part of the problem, but both sides tend to reduce either socialism or capitalism to only good/bad things. Capitalism is just greed and legalized theft, for example.

I'll pick on conservatives with this example:

Most conservatives like the public school system, but the government has a monopoly on the means of production here, a clear example of socialism. This never gets grouped in with socialist ideas, because socialism is bad and public school is good. However, welfare is bad, so it gets grouped as a socialist idea when that's not really what socialism is.

Just seems like there is so much misuse of terms, probably starting with talking heads, and it's confused the conversation.
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I agree with much of this but I don't get the impression conservatives like public education very much at all as is. I think they do value education but I've seen their platform to be very at odds with status quo PE.
 
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#7,581
LSU-SIU said:
In today's world as a generalization foreigners are coming here and trying to replace tradition, culture, political questions, etc with how things were done in their own failed State. Its Yellowstone, "what is a foreigner"? A person that comes here to escape the shithole they came from and than try to change it to exactly like the place the already ****ed up. (paraphrased)

(I don't really watch that show but I think I caught that in the first episode)
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You mean like the Poles, Greeks, Jews, Hungarians, Italians, Irish, etc. did in the late 1800's and early 1900's? Did you notice that they're all well enough assimilated now?
 
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#7,583
#7,583
LouderVol said:
socialism covers more than ownership of the means of production. thats no where close to being enough to the economic theory that socialism is. and doesn't even touch the political aspects of it.

economically socialism also changes the stated goal from profit to meeting needs only. It also pushes societal changes (presumably towards equality). both of those we have seen from our government, the left tends to push things like renewables far beyond the market demand, as well as trying to force equality through various means. the right pushes whatever grift Trump is on.

depending on which flavor of socialist you are will determine the level/specifics of the governments involvement, well beyond just owning the means of production.
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All that's much more Social Democracy than Socialism.
 
#7,584
#7,584
EasternVol said:
You mean like the Poles, Greeks, Jews, Hungarians, Italians, Irish, etc. did in the late 1800's and early 1900's? Did you notice that they're all well enough assimilated now?
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Yet, I said in today's world. Did you notice? A good portion of these people are not going assimilate which is why you have virtually all the same areas complaining about the hell they created locally.
 
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#7,586
LouderVol said:
thats different because posters here didn't directly experience that.
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So, let's take New York as an example. Not only are the people coming there not assimilating, they scared the other insane crazy New Yorkers out - which is why we have to hear from relatives/friends in Florida that all the New Yorkers need to go back.
 
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#7,587
LouderVol said:
how either goes about it.

socialism will dictate what economic mobility/equality you have. even to the point of impeding you. even to the point of actively taking away from you. at the very least the past owners of the means of production are having their private property stolen from them. the government tells you what you can have, and largely even what you can do.

capitalism itself won't stop you, it also won't help you. you have the freedom to succeed, and to fail.
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That's not socialism, that's elements of communism. When the Brits were socialist was all that done?
 
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#7,590
LSU-SIU said:
Yet, I said in today's world. Did you notice? A good portion of these people are not going assimilate which is why you have virtually all the same areas complaining about the hell they created locally.
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You know bigots then said the same especially about Chinese immigrants. They were wrong.
Today's world is the same world as the world then.
 
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#7,591
#7,591
EasternVol said:
You know bigots then said the same about Chinese immigrants. They were wrong.
Today's world is the same world as the world then.
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Well, either they are assimilating or they're not. I lived in Europe, I didn't try and change Europe or Europeans as a generalization.

Its not complex.
 
#7,593
#7,593
EasternVol said:
It was more colonizing than escaping to, especially for the upper crust.
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They really weren't colonizing, meaning there really wasn't much here. The countries came here to get land and resources, the individuals escaped for other reasons.
 
#7,594
#7,594
LSU-SIU said:
Mr. Chicken, you believe a face diaper is going to save you or social distancing is going to stop you from getting a cold, so if we take you as a test case - very obvious idiots can be taught all kinds of things.
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You evidently subscribe to the trumpian philosophy of "if you repeat a lie often enough, you can make it the new reality".

I have to admit, it actually seems to work..........on the mindless and gullible. (which is a far larger segment than I had realized)
 
#7,595
#7,595
luthervol said:
You evidently subscribe to the trumpian philosophy of "if you repeat a lie often enough, you can make it the new reality".

I have to admit, it actually seems to work..........on the mindless and gullible. (which is a far larger segment than I had realized)
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What lie are you referring to?
 
#7,596
#7,596
LouderVol said:
is that what you actually meant to say?

I mean its true. because there are a good number of people who voted for him because Kamala/the Dems are bad.

voting third party will pull votes from both sides, not just the dems.
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Of course it pulls votes from both sides.

Again.....water is wet.

And it's a pretty good reason to not nominate a candidate that is so disagreeable to the other side that a large percentage of votes is simply against your candidate rather than for another candidate.

I did not support Hillary in the primary for that very reason (even though she was the best candidate by most all other metrics)
 
#7,597
#7,597
luthervol said:
Of course it pulls votes from both sides.

Again.....water is wet.

And it's a pretty good reason to not nominate a candidate that is so disagreeable to the other side that a large percentage of votes is simply against your candidate rather than for another candidate.

I did not support Hillary in the primary for that very reason (even though she was the best candidate by most all other metrics)
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Gotacha, so you voted for someone directly involved in murder of an American, admitted to serious felonies live on TV, and was directly involved in trying to overthrow not only a President elect but also a President.

Sounds qualified.
 
#7,598
#7,598
BreatheUT said:
Your comparison of our founders to those who recently migrated and have not assimilated is the brain function of primitive man and/or the evidence of failed institutions which you are part of.
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I have no expectation of your understanding.
 
#7,599
#7,599
EasternVol said:
That's pretty much exactly how this country was founded. Stop listening to so many Rush Limbaugh reruns.
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That's a weak one liner. Did you work on that for weeks?

Your words should be a case study on ignorance. However though studied, I believe time has proven it will be pointless in resolving your internal conflict with facts.

The Declaration of Independence was heavily influenced by christian beliefs, some old european ideas building civilized societies and the Enlightment period relying on principles like philosoper John Locke for real classic liberalism - not the way the term has been bastardized by leftists today.
 
#7,600
#7,600
EasternVol said:
You mean like the Poles, Greeks, Jews, Hungarians, Italians, Irish, etc. did in the late 1800's and early 1900's? Did you notice that they're all well enough assimilated now?
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Of course he didn't mean that......those groups are all white.....that's completely different in the minds of trumpers.
 
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