Penn St fires James Franklin

[tim]

Bold prediction. Urban to State college.

 

[Carp]

I think Rhule will be the first guy they call. Cignetti would win big at psu so I hope he stays where he is. My worst fear is florida cans Billy and hires Cig. THAT would be a nightmare.

I don't think Cig is leaving the Big12. And certainly not for UF, whose admin and booster situation is a nightmare.

I also think there is at least a decent chance LSU makes a change if they lose 2 more games and miss the playoffs again. And if that happens, basically no school with a top tier HC is safe, aside from OSU, UGA, and Bama (don't think LSU would want Deboer anyways).

 

[YankeeVol]

I don't think Cig is leaving the Big12. And certainly not for UF, whose admin and booster situation is a nightmare.

I also think there is at least a decent chance LSU makes a change if they lose 2 more games and miss the playoffs again. And if that happens, basically no school with a top tier HC is safe, aside from OSU, UGA, and Bama (don't think LSU would want Deboer anyways).

Kelly will be fired if they don't make the playoffs. Book it.

 

[GVF]

Kelly will be fired if they don't make the playoffs. Book it.

With in-laws and such, I got into LSU football when it didn't impact UT. Was always fun to wach. Kelly was never the right fit for LSU from the get go. Did not understand that marriage at all.

Talent rich environment. Quite possibly the only school you can stay in state 100% to recruit and win championships, and he's done nothing with it.

 

[05_never_again]

With in-laws and such, I got into LSU football when it didn't impact UT. Was always fun to wach. Kelly was never the right fit for LSU from the get go. Did not understand that marriage at all.

It was an ego play by Scott Woodward. He'd just taken the LSU job and was obsessed with hiring a big name who was thought to "never leave" their current job. He also had a long-term relationship with Kelly's agent, if memory serves.

I think it was more about making the college football world go "Wow, how'd he land him?" as opposed to finding the best fit. The interesting thing is that he's undoubtedly a better coach than Miles or O, but he might not end up being better than them at LSU because of the cultural fit.

 

[superdave1984]

I guess psu could do an ex coach swap with the Titans.

 

[GVF]

It was an ego play by Scott Woodward. He'd just taken the LSU job and was obsessed with hiring a big name who was thought to "never leave" their current job. He also had a long-term relationship with Kelly's agent, if memory serves.

I think it was more about making the college football world go "Wow, how'd he land him?" as opposed to finding the best fit. The interesting thing is that he's undoubtedly a better coach than Miles or O, but he might not end up being better than them at LSU because of the cultural fit.

But, what did he really do at ND?

Saban @ LSU = Natty
Miles @ LSU = Natty
Orgeron @ LSU = Natty
Kelly @ ND = Nothing
Kelly @ LSU = Nothing, and he had Daniels for 2 seasons. It's not like he had to rebuild anything. Kelly is not a good/elite in game coach. A good sideline coach would have already won something in the time he's been there. Cultural fit aside, he has still had the rosters and failed.

 

[05_never_again]

But, what did he really do at ND?

Saban @ LSU = Natty
Miles @ LSU = Natty
Orgeron @ LSU = Natty
Kelly @ ND = Nothing
Kelly @ LSU = Nothing, and he had Daniels for 2 seasons. It's not like he had to rebuild anything. Kelly is not a good/elite in game coach. A good sideline coach would have already won something in the time he's been there. Cultural fit aside, he has still had the rosters and failed.

If you define anything other than winning a national title as "nothing," then I suppose he did nothing at ND. That's a ridiculous standard to hold anyone to though.

I think what he did at ND was pretty impressive, actually. Much, much more impressive than what he's showing in Baton Rouge so far. He was a much better cultural fit there. Played for a title in 2012, finished in the top 12 6 out of the last 7 years he was there. He's only managed one top 12 finish at LSU so far in 3 years. Despite what many believe, I don't think ND is a super easy place to win.

 

[GVF]

If you define anything other than winning a national title as "nothing," then I suppose he did nothing at ND. That's a ridiculous standard to hold anyone to though.

I think what he did at ND was pretty impressive, actually. Much, much more impressive than what he's showing in Baton Rouge so far. He was a much better cultural fit there. Played for a title in 2012, finished in the top 12 6 out of the last 7 years he was there. He's only managed one top 12 finish at LSU so far in 3 years. Despite what many believe, I don't think ND is a super easy place to win.

Snoopy and Linus could have tag team coached ND to top 12 finishes. It's ND and media ranking.

Not saying winning a natty is a requirement for rising above nothing. Just pointing out that the LSU coaches you think he is better than, all have won Natty's at LSU. And he has had a few rosters that could have followed suit and he blew it. Kelly is not an elite in game coach. Solid but not a championship coach. They haven't put up more than 24 this season except for SELA. That is not LSU caliber football. UT has more rotational RB's that play and produce.

And as far as cultural fits, Miles was way out in left field past Kelly. He was such an odd duck though, it just worked. But, Miles didn't pretend like Kelly has tried to present himself. Miles just presented as he was, so he was accepted while he won/stayed out of trouble.

 

[YankeeVol]

With in-laws and such, I got into LSU football when it didn't impact UT. Was always fun to wach. Kelly was never the right fit for LSU from the get go. Did not understand that marriage at all.

Talent rich environment. Quite possibly the only school you can stay in state 100% to recruit and win championships, and he's done nothing with it.

GA, FL, TX as well.

 

[05_never_again]

Snoopy and Linus could have tag team coached ND to top 12 finishes. It's ND and media ranking.

Not saying winning a natty is a requirement for rising above nothing. Just pointing out that the LSU coaches you think he is better than, all have won Natty's at LSU. And he has had a few rosters that could have followed suit and he blew it. Kelly is not an elite in game coach. Solid but not a championship coach. They haven't put up more than 24 this season except for SELA. That is not LSU caliber football. UT has more rotational RB's that play and produce.

And as far as cultural fits, Miles was way out in left field past Kelly. He was such an odd duck though, it just worked. But, Miles didn't pretend like Kelly has tried to present himself. Miles just presented as he was, so he was accepted while he won/stayed out of trouble.

Look at the teams he was beating at ND. I know many here will never be impressed by a non-SEC team regardless of what they do, but he had good teams at ND. He was really consistent there. Would have been in a 12-team CFP most years he was there. Played schedules that were harder than Big Ten teams, which many here criticize them for not joining.

At LSU, "way out in left field" is actually a better cultural fit than Kelly. Kelly is very buttoned up, tightly wound, and corporate. He looks and presents himself more like a partner at a private equity firm than a college football coach. He's in Baton Rouge surrounded by a bunch of Cajuns who are insane about football. It's an odd fit. They'll never truly adore him even if he delivers titles there. Miles wasn't from the area like O is, but his quirky style worked there. Especially while he was winning.

 

[GVF]

GA, FL, TX as well.

Yeah. Kelly = Sark

 

[jackaro]

I get what you and Yankee are saying, but I suspected he would at least make it to the end of the season. They did make the playoffs last year.

I mean I can't stand the dude, he's a total prick. But it still seems odd.

You need to include over a decade of Franklin losing the big games every year in this reasoning. The frustration of losing those critical games and conference/national championships being just out of reach built up over the years. Fans were tired of always being the 2nd or 3rd best team in their conference.

There are frustrations exactly like that expressed on this board about Heupel. Imagine 7 more years of losing to Bama and Georgia then the wheels completely falling off in Heupels 12th year. I think it is easy to understand why he was fired.

 

[GVF]

Look at the teams he was beating at ND. I know many here will never be impressed by a non-SEC team regardless of what they do, but he had good teams at ND. He was really consistent there. Would have been in a 12-team CFP most years he was there. Played schedules that were harder than Big Ten teams, which many here criticize them for not joining.

At LSU, "way out in left field" is actually a better cultural fit than Kelly. Kelly is very buttoned up, tightly wound, and corporate. He looks and presents himself more like a partner at a private equity firm than a college football coach. He's in Baton Rouge surrounded by a bunch of Cajuns who are insane about football. It's an odd fit. They'll never truly adore him even if he delivers titles there. Miles wasn't from the area like O is, but his quirky style worked there. Especially while he was winning.

And yet never reeled in a title. Had all that, and at ND to boot. THE place the media wants so bad to crown the utopia of college football for no justifiable reason. My entire point and already said it. Solid coach. Just not a championship coach. Cannot close the deal. No coach has ever been in better situations than Kelly at both ND and LSU and no title. Miles' had two downfalls at LSU but was otherwise a fantastic coach. He didn't try to evolve with the game until it was too late, hence only the one title. Prob should have had two. And he couldn't keep his hand out of the cookie jar. Which was O's problem or he likely would still be steam rolling there if his distractions hadn't hurt the W/L column. Now, if Kelly can correct what's wrong and bounce back and add a lone trophy to his cabinet, I'll cook the crow on the barbie. Till then he's nothing more than a buffoon and a solid coach. It's not unreasnable for LSU to expect and get atleast one title under any coaches tenure there since Saban put them on the map.

 

[jackaro]

I think Franklin is an elite coach. Top 10 or 20 anyway. Penn St. going to regret this is my bet.

Respectfully, your definition of elite is different than mine. A coached ranked top 10 or 20 is good. You gotta be at least top 5 year in, year out to be elite in my mind.

 

[YankeeVol]

And yet never reeled in a title. Had all that, and at ND to boot. THE place the media wants so bad to crown the utopia of college football for no justifiable reason. My entire point and already said it. Solid coach. Just not a championship coach. Cannot close the deal. No coach has ever been in better situations than Kelly at both ND and LSU and no title. Miles' had two downfalls at LSU but was otherwise a fantastic coach. He didn't try to evolve with the game until it was too late, hence only the one title. Prob should have had two. And he couldn't keep his hand out of the cookie jar. Which was O's problem or he likely would still be steam rolling there if his distractions hadn't hurt the W/L column. Now, if Kelly can correct what's wrong and bounce back and add a lone trophy to his cabinet, I'll cook the crow on the barbie. Till then he's nothing more than a buffoon and a solid coach. It's not unreasnable for LSU to expect and get atleast one title under any coaches tenure there since Saban put them on the map.

He has 2 Division II NC's (back-to-back, and played in 3 straight).

 

[05_never_again]

And yet never reeled in a title. Had all that, and at ND to boot. THE place the media wants so bad to crown the utopia of college football for no justifiable reason. My entire point and already said it. Solid coach. Just not a championship coach. Cannot close the deal. No coach has ever been in better situations than Kelly at both ND and LSU and no title. Miles' had two downfalls at LSU but was otherwise a fantastic coach. He didn't try to evolve with the game until it was too late, hence only the one title. Prob should have had two. And he couldn't keep his hand out of the cookie jar. Which was O's problem or he likely would still be steam rolling there if his distractions hadn't hurt the W/L column. Now, if Kelly can correct what's wrong and bounce back and add a lone trophy to his cabinet, I'll cook the crow on the barbie. Till then he's nothing more than a buffoon and a solid coach. It's not unreasnable for LSU to expect and get atleast one title under any coaches tenure there since Saban put them on the map.

Who cares that the media loves them. It isn't a particularly easy place to win anymore. Kelly was in the top 12 all those years because of media bias? Pretty small school, less resources than the large Big Ten schools they are close to, many top recruits don't want to play at a small Catholic school in South Bend, IN.

I don't think the media loves them as much as they used to anyway. Lots of reasons for that; demographics, they are of course a Catholic school but that phenomenon where many Catholics had their team + ND (if ND wasn't their team to begin with) is much less of a thing than it was in the 70s and 80s. The balance of power in the sport has shifted southward; if anything, the media overall has an SEC bias.

 

[JMSqb11]

With in-laws and such, I got into LSU football when it didn't impact UT. Was always fun to wach. Kelly was never the right fit for LSU from the get go. Did not understand that marriage at all.

Talent rich environment. Quite possibly the only school you can stay in state 100% to recruit and win championships, and he's done nothing with it.

Kelly was odd fit, but he was a stellar hire for them once Lincoln Riley bolted to the Pac12 and ran from the SEC

Like Kelly's resume alone made him the best hire they could have made. Just because it hasn't gone well doesn't mean it was a bad hire.

Kelly on paper should crush it at LSU.

 

[GVF]

He has 2 Division II NC's (back-to-back, and played in 3 straight).

True. Was aware. But, we were looking at his D1 resume so I should have clarified. Solid coach. Just not sure he will ever get his D1 title, and probably should have had 2 between ND & LSU already. Just not a fan of his as LSU's HC.

For all his ND accolades, he averaged 3.4 losses per season over 12 seasons, and made one CFP semi-final. Lost 3 to 8 games 7 times. To be fair, Holtz' record was only marginally better overall, but he did get their last natty in '88. Not sure it's fair to compare then and now for anyone really.

 

[YankeeVol]

True. Was aware. But, we were looking at his D1 resume so I should have clarified. Solid coach. Just not sure he will ever get his D1 title, and probably should have had 2 between ND & LSU already. Just not a fan of his as LSU's HC.

For all his ND accolades, he averaged 3.4 losses per season over 12 seasons, and made one CFP semi-final. Lost 3 to 8 games 7 times. To be fair, Holtz' record was only marginally better overall, but he did get their last natty in '88. Not sure it's fair to compare then and now for anyone really.

I don't think anyone is lol, especially LSU fans

 

[GVF]

Who cares that the media loves them. It isn't a particularly easy place to win anymore. Kelly was in the top 12 all those years because of media bias? Pretty small school, less resources than the large Big Ten schools they are close to, many top recruits don't want to play at a small Catholic school in South Bend, IN.

I don't think the media loves them as much as they used to anyway. Lots of reasons for that; demographics, they are of course a Catholic school but that phenomenon where many Catholics had their team + ND (if ND wasn't their team to begin with) is much less of a thing than it was in the 70s and 80s. The balance of power in the sport has shifted southward; if anything, the media overall has an SEC bias.

Top 12 with 3.4 loss per year everage over 12 seasons. 3 or more (up to 8) losses 7 times. One CFP semi. No other team would get that love in the rankings to be Top 12 consistently losing 41 games in 12 seasons. By comparison for the day, Holtz wasn't a ton better in results than Kelly, except for the lone title. Like I said, solid considering you go there with only hope of a natty because there are no conference titles to win. It's an all or bust recruiting pitch.

I think the media bias for the SEC dwindles after Bama & UGA, but they have Texas and OU now to spread the love. The rest of us are second fiddle. They want so bad to include UF, but Billy Boy makes it almost impossible.

 

[GVF]

I don't think anyone is lol, especially LSU fans

No one in my wife's family for sure. Thing is LSU fans don't expect you to speak broken french or eat jambalaya 8 days a week. If Kelly had just been himself like Miles and O did, and put up the results with the rosters he's had it'd have been easy peasy. Miles did have to vacate those wins. His dealings that brought all that on were totally unncessary there though. Tarnished a great career he had there.

It's a bit painful to watch this years offense down there. Weird is all I can say. He should be buying that D some nice steaks and crawfish with only 1 loss and averaging barely over 20 points except for the NELA game.

 

[TheDirector]

I don't even remember what all he interviewed for. I doubt offers/declines really goes public.

But I do agree with you. It's not the fault of the coach for having an agent negotiating an awesome buyout. I can see why a coach would want a buyout when he takes a new job. Often times coach changes are due to the previous coach being fired and the new coach inherits a team that is a mess. It will take time. A buyout can help guarantee he'll get time to implement his changes, coach up players, and see results. I don't really have a problem with that. But that's not the scenario Franklin was in anymore. He's in like year 12 at Penn St. This is 100% his team. Again not his fault, but if I'm Penn St in that 1st new contract after year 4 or 5 I'm saying we need to revisit this buyout and drop it down significantly.

My original reply was more towards the Butch Jones part of the conversation. The poster you replied to said Butch only took the Alabama job to stick it to Tennessee and twist the knife and it was insinuated that all he did was fake his way through interviews to make Tennessee pay his buyout. I actually think Butch did the smartest thing he could have at the time by taking the job with Saban. The Saban Car Wash for coaches was very successful for several coaches and Butch was able to get another multi-million dollar coaching job after his time there. Arkansas State was probably the best job he could have hoped for after his failure here. If our fans are salty that we paid Butch for his time at Alabama then they should complain about the Admin that offered the contract.

As to your second paragraph, I think it is absurd that supposed smart people in Admin positions at Universities continue to agree to these enormous buyouts and then they are forced to pay the buyouts time after time when the coach fails. I'm all for paying coaches who succeed but it is ridiculous that coaches can get even more when they fail and are sent home. Just blows the mind. The Agents are so much smarter than the University Admins when it comes to Negotiations, Financial Intelligence and Business Acumen.

 

[SN-A-C Orange]

Every head coach’s contract, and most assistant coaches’ contracts have this clause. But what you actually have to do to seek consummate employment is actively apply for and be interviewed for jobs. If he wants to stay out of coaching, all he has to do is line of an interview every year And it’s satisfies the arrangement.

Coaching and entertainment contracts are my wheelhouse, and I can only think of a handful of times that a team or college program has successfully gone after a coach and gotten a judgment for failure to mitigate. Virtually impossible to prove. Some donors at Tennessee wanted to go after Butch, but he was toxic for a couple of jobs because of the title IX lawsuits and sexual assault allegations that happened on his watch, particularly at a couple of schools that had previously had similar incidents. But he was able to interview for at least one head coaching job every year when he was at Alabama, and that satisfied the language in the contract.

That said, Franklin will be at another P4 school by 2027 at the latest.

@DeerPark12
Any idea how JF's contract was structured?
Single Lump Sum? (because he negotiated it down?)
Starting lump and the rest over years?
All of it over years?

There were rumors he "negotiated" the buy out .... if true that would imply he was willing to take a starting lump and then "actively" look for a new job.

My 2 cents ... James was READY to leave (not the players or coaches, but) Pennsylvania and the administration ... I'm betting on a year off (from coaching) ... he could take an advisory/consulting gig ... then he returns to coaching in 27 or 26 [if the got the starting lump and if it is the right fit.]

 

[05_never_again]

Top 12 with 3.4 loss per year everage over 12 seasons. 3 or more (up to 8) losses 7 times. One CFP semi. No other team would get that love in the rankings to be Top 12 consistently losing 41 games in 12 seasons. By comparison for the day, Holtz wasn't a ton better in results than Kelly, except for the lone title. Like I said, solid considering you go there with only hope of a natty because there are no conference titles to win. It's an all or bust recruiting pitch.

I think the media bias for the SEC dwindles after Bama & UGA, but they have Texas and OU now to spread the love. The rest of us are second fiddle. They want so bad to include UF, but Billy Boy makes it almost impossible.

I totally disagree. The media 100% prefers second fiddle SEC teams over second fiddle Big Ten teams. You think they want Indiana, Wisconsin, Iowa, Michigan St, etc. in big spots over LSU, A&M, Tennessee, UF, etc.?