Israel vs Palestinians II

#2,602
#2,602
McDad said:
The problem with your position is data. Palenstinians in Israel have a better life (on the four metrics) than palestinians in Gaza. Even though Israel is far from perfect.

There is no need to discuss the what ifs from decades ago because it didn't happen. How many years has Gaza been "governing" themselves?
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I appreciate your effort McDad, but you are wasting your time.
 
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#2,604
#2,604
McDad said:
Only confusing to the hopelessly obtuse.
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What disqualifies one should disqualify all.
McDad said:
Never said that.
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Ahem, "Gaza being governed by gazans is defacto rule by terrorists."
McDad said:
self explanatory.
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It should be, but alas...
McDad said:
inconsequential. I am not concerned with the history, I am concerned with the future.
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You're giving the Israelis a pass because you're not concerned with history yet you disqualify Palestinians because of history.
McDad said:
or any functional government
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Best option would be a multinational effort to get things stabilized then Palestinian self rule.
 
#2,606
#2,606
McDad said:
Look man, if we are going to have a legitimate discussion, you are in charge of keeping up with your understanding. Please just review what is archived over the last 12+ hours.
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You answered the question in a later post. It's something that's never been possible, because of armed occupation.
 
#2,607
#2,607
EasternVol said:
Ahem, "Gaza being governed by gazans is defacto rule by terrorists."
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You grotesquely misunderstood that post.

Governance by Gazans is defacto rule by terrorists means: the terrorists take over by force, fear, and intimidation.

According to AI, about 43% of Gazans support Hamas...but that is very tricky to quantify because of the aforementioned fear and intimidation.
 
#2,609
#2,609
EasternVol said:
Yeah, with one arm and one leg tied behind their back and a sack over their head. It wasn't an opportunity for that at all.
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...and, hilariously (or sadly) with Israel directly funding extremists within their borders.

If you can't see that Israel is just undertaking a land grab of the West Bank and Gaza while hiding behind Americans, you're an idiot. There's no other way around it.
 
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#2,611
#2,611
McDad said:
Hey @EasternVol , if control of gaza to a governement with a good track record is a non starter, how about this:
a panel of 13 representatives from the top 13 governments are appointed as consultants to teach the elected leaders of Gaza how to govern? The panel has final say but as the Gaza gpvernment gets their footing underneath them, the panel decreases oversight year over year.

That way there is no occupation and Gazan's learn to self govern.
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That would be pretty unworkable in detail but the gist is good. Workshops, working visits to see best practices applied, etc. would be helpful. Important also are a good constitution and no domination by foreign powers. Don't forget that Gaza is part of Palestine so the rest should be included in the plan. It sounds like a good project for the UN.
 
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#2,612
#2,612
McDad said:
The problem with your position is data. Palenstinians in Israel have a better life (on the four metrics) than palestinians in Gaza. Even though Israel is far from perfect.

There is no need to discuss the what ifs from decades ago because it didn't happen. How many years has Gaza been "governing" themselves?
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You keep saying data. Do you mean examples?
The answer to your question is 0. They've been under Israeli occupation since 1967.
 
#2,613
#2,613
McDad said:
You grotesquely misunderstood that post.

Governance by Gazans is defacto rule by terrorists means: the terrorists take over by force, fear, and intimidation.

According to AI, about 43% of Gazans support Hamas...but that is very tricky to quantify because of the aforementioned fear and intimidation.
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Why is Gaza uniquely susceptible to that? Granted it happened in Israel with their line of terrorist prime ministers but it doesn't necessarily have to happen.
 
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#2,614
#2,614
hog88 said:
Please explain how they were so hampered in their efforts.
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Apparently the last several times it was explained didn't stick. Israel controls imports, exports, airspace, offshore resources, movement of people, etc. Funny how those who cite Gaza's lack of economic development don't mention Israel's blockade and destruction of infrastructure there.
There's plenty on the web about the subject. Here's one article:
www.nbcnews.com

Gaza Strip explained: Who controls it and what to know

The Hamas attack that has killed hundreds was launched from one of the most densely populated and impoverished strips of land in the world.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
 
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#2,616
#2,616
EasternVol said:
That would be pretty unworkable in detail but the gist is good. Workshops, working visits to see best practices applied, etc. would be good. Keys also are a good constitution and no domination by foreign powers. Don't forget that Gaza is part of Palestine so the rest should be included in the plan. It sounds like a good project for the UN.
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Panel has to have some teeth. Motivate those who are sufficiently motivated with the carrot and the others with the stick.
 
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#2,617
#2,617
ButchPlz said:
...and, hilariously (or sadly) with Israel directly funding extremists within their borders.

If you can't see that Israel is just undertaking a land grab of the West Bank and Gaza while hiding behind Americans, you're an idiot. There's no other way around it.
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When do the people of Gaza bear some responsibility for their own situation or do we continue in perpetuity to excuse their failure to form a peaceful government? Children don't get to govern themselves and yet people want to continue to treat them like helpless children.
 
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#2,621
#2,621
EasternVol said:
Why is Gaza uniquely susceptible to that?
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I really don't know. I don't know if the more democratic population are unable to fight the sectarians, or what? And it isn't unique to Gaza. It is observed in many places. Perhaps the religious and/or political fanatics are willing to die for their cause and others are not.

Maybe it derives from hate of another people, or country. And the more peaceful part of the population harbors the same animus but doesn't become radicalized.

Oddly, Egypt does't seem to plagued by that like other countries are.
 
#2,623
#2,623
McDad said:
Even more damning.

compare and contrast the Palestinian in Israel to the Palestinian in Gaza. Same government with different outcomes.
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Because they treat them differently in each place and there are other incredibly important factors at play. They don't enjoy true self-governance in a war-torn, overpopulated region. They have no realistic shot at prosperity.


Why do Palestinians in Israel live better lives than Palestinians in Gaza?

ChatGPT said:​

Palestinians in Israel generally experience a higher standard of living than Palestinians in Gaza because the political, economic, and security conditions in each place are vastly different. A few key reasons explain this:

1. Political and Legal Status​

  • Palestinians in Israel (about 20% of Israel’s citizens) hold Israeli citizenship. They have the right to vote, access to the Israeli legal system, and protections under Israeli law (though many argue discrimination still exists).
  • Palestinians in Gaza live under Hamas rule since 2007. They do not hold Israeli citizenship and are not part of Israel’s political system. Their daily lives are shaped by Hamas’ governance, internal restrictions, and external blockades.

2. Economic Opportunities​

  • Inside Israel: Palestinians can access Israel’s job market, social services, and universities. Though wage gaps and barriers exist, employment opportunities are more available and stable.
  • In Gaza: The economy has been devastated by repeated wars, restrictions on imports/exports, and limited access to jobs. Unemployment often exceeds 40–50%. Many young Gazans have few prospects beyond aid dependency.

3. Freedom of Movement and Trade​

  • In Israel: Arab citizens can travel within Israel, use airports, and in many cases travel abroad.
  • In Gaza: Movement is heavily restricted by both Israel and Egypt due to security concerns (weapons smuggling, militant activity). Gaza has no functioning airport, seaport, or open borders, which severely limits trade and travel.

4. Infrastructure and Services​

  • Israel provides: Access to modern hospitals, schools, roads, and utilities. Life expectancy, infant mortality, and quality of education are generally far higher for Palestinians in Israel.
  • In Gaza: Infrastructure has been repeatedly damaged by wars, and shortages of electricity, clean water, and medicine are chronic. International aid helps, but services remain very limited.

5. Security Conditions​

  • Inside Israel: Palestinians face tensions and occasional outbreaks of violence, but not daily war conditions.
  • In Gaza: Residents live under frequent conflict, airstrikes, and rocket fire, with Hamas and Israel locked in a cycle of hostilities. This instability makes normal life and investment nearly impossible.
✅ In short: Palestinians in Israel live better lives because they are citizens of a functioning state with access to economic, political, and legal systems, while Palestinians in Gaza are trapped in a territory with weak governance, economic isolation, damaged infrastructure, and ongoing conflict.
 
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#2,624
#2,624
McDad said:
Even more damning.

compare and contrast the Palestinian in Israel to the Palestinian in Gaza. Same government with different outcomes.
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Dude, seriously? Different governments, very different. Inside Israel is civil government. In the occupied territories it's military rule with very little in the way of rights for the occupied.
 
#2,625
#2,625
EasternVol said:
Yeah, with one arm and one leg tied behind their back and a sack over their head. It wasn't an opportunity for that at all.
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Do you deny that Hamas took a large percentage of the aid they were sent and used to build rockets and dig tunnels instead of actually improving them the lives of the Gazans? Whose fault would that be?
 
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