Israel vs Palestinians II

#328
#328
McDad said:
Do either those resources affirm or explicitly state the IDF doesn't restrict or prohibit?

Looks like those were just discussing the stuff that gets in.
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Not starvation, yes hunger. Complicated mess;
 
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#329
#329
MAD said:
Haviv mentions that UN statistics showed there was a few months worth of food in Gaza when Israel started a blockade. (However, because of some people stockpiling food, others began to run out)

Give a watch of Haviv Rettig Gur to understand. Not starvation, yes hunger. Complicated mess;

Watch

https://youtu.be/SQx1Qy5Z5fA?si=UnsqluH5uwyUxzmv
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You said no to his question. Now you say there was a blockade? Alright…
 
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#330
#330
McDad said:
Ok.
Let me try to understand two things which are thrown around here as contradictory.

IDF blocks and restricts some portion of food and other aid allowed into Gaza. Yes or no?
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Yes. This is without a doubt a fact. There was a total blockade of food and medical supplies but the west freaked out and Israel backed off and then started playing the PR game by offering some aid.

McDad said:
Hamas steals some portion of aid and food that actually makes it into Gaza. Yes or no?
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I would guess that Hamas has taken some aid for themselves. There is no proof of the claims of systematic theft of aid.

  • USAID internal analysis (June 2025): reviewed 156 reported theft/diversion incidents (Oct 2023–May 2025) and “found no evidence” that Hamas systematically diverted U.S.-funded aid. Reuters ABC News
  • UN agencies’ public line: UNRWA has said it has no specific, substantiated allegations that Hamas diverted aid distributed by UNRWA. (It also retracted an early Oct. 2023 note implying fuel was stolen from its compound.) UNRWA Haaretz
  • Documented looting/insecurity: Reuters and other outlets reported widespread looting by civilians and “armed actors,” but the UN data cited in some analyses doesn’t attribute those incidents to Hamas specifically. Reuters FDD
 
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#331
#331
Smokey123 said:
You said no to his question. Now you say there was a blockade? Alright…
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The question
IDF blocks and restricts some portion of food and other aid allowed into Gaza. Yes or no?

So is IDF blocking food but allowing other aid into Gaza?

No.

There was a period back in March where they tried pressuring Hamas by stopping all aid into Gaza in hope to get the hostages freed. It did not work.
 
#332
#332
I kinda hate that I even acknowledge the argument that Hamas steals food.

We all agree that Hamas are the villains.

The expectation is that Israel is the good guys.

If it's your territory, you're the good guys, and you're ultimately responsible for the people in Gaza (don't tell me Hamas is responsible for them....they're the villains, remember?), then the answer can't be to starve the people to root out Hamas. Gaza is Bibi's responsibility. It's been under his watchful police state for longer than I can remember. In America, we hopefully wouldn't blow up a school in Puerto Rico in order to get a few terrorists. We hopefully wouldn't starve the whole island to root out the terrorists. And if we do that, we're not the good guys. I can't fathom we would deliberately shoot kids in this scenario.
 
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#333
#333
n_huffhines said:
I kinda hate that I even acknowledge the argument that Hamas steals food.

We all agree that Hamas are the villains.

The expectation is that Israel is the good guys.

If it's your territory, you're the good guys, and you're ultimately responsible for the people in Gaza (don't tell me Hamas is responsible for them....they're the villains, remember?), then the answer can't be to starve the people to root out Hamas. Gaza is Bibi's responsibility. It's been under his watchful police state for longer than I can remember. In America, we hopefully wouldn't blow up a school in Puerto Rico in order to get a few terrorists. We hopefully wouldn't starve the whole island to root out the terrorists. And if we do that, we're not the good guys. I can't fathom we would deliberately shoot kids in this scenario.
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Hamas deliberately shoots kids if they take aid that they don’t control.

Israel is trying to get the aid to the kids without funding Hamas’s terror against Israel.
 
#334
#334
McDad said:
Ok.
Let me try to understand two things which are thrown around here as contradictory.

IDF blocks and restricts some portion of food and other aid allowed into Gaza. Yes or no?

Hamas steals some portion of aid and food that actually makes it into Gaza. Yes or no?
Click to expand...
Yes and yes.
 
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#336
#336
MAD said:
The question
IDF blocks and restricts some portion of food and other aid allowed into Gaza. Yes or no?

So is IDF blocking food but allowing other aid into Gaza?

No.

There was a period back in March where they tried pressuring Hamas by stopping all aid into Gaza in hope to get the hostages freed. It did not work.
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I'm more confused, now.

Are you saying the IDF blocked aid or food but not aid AND food?
 
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#337
#337
n_huffhines said:
I kinda hate that I even acknowledge the argument that Hamas steals food.

We all agree that Hamas are the villains.

The expectation is that Israel is the good guys.

If it's your territory, you're the good guys, and you're ultimately responsible for the people in Gaza (don't tell me Hamas is responsible for them....they're the villains, remember?), then the answer can't be to starve the people to root out Hamas. Gaza is Bibi's responsibility. It's been under his watchful police state for longer than I can remember. In America, we hopefully wouldn't blow up a school in Puerto Rico in order to get a few terrorists. We hopefully wouldn't starve the whole island to root out the terrorists. And if we do that, we're not the good guys. I can't fathom we would deliberately shoot kids in this scenario.
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This is more confusing than MAD's reply.

Hamas is bad. Hamas steals relief supplies but you hate to admit it.

But Hamas doesn't control Gaza so it isn't their fault they're stealing relief and contributing to starvation.

Is that an accurate summary?
 
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#343
#343
McDad said:
So far, every person who has answered has agreed both the IDF and Hamas are prohibiting relief supplies from reaching their targets.
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Israel has said at various points that they interpreted the flow of aid either in its entirety or partially. So by thier own admission they have not always allowed aid. Hamas had lied their ass off about it but they’ve been caught too many times to count stealing the aid and shooting their own people.

So…..
Yes and yes ….i guess
 
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#344
#344
Smokey123 said:
Just curious was there a purpose for the question? Or just wondering what the answers would be
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A little bit of both.

Maybe I've got a bad read on the arguments but it seems each side blames the other for preventing or obstructing relief.

So, I was curious what the answer would be when questioned directly.

It also helps me understand the recurring arguments aren't about who is right or wrong but who is mostly right or wrong and who is justified in their rightness or wrongness.
 
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#345
#345
n_huffhines said:
I kinda hate that I even acknowledge the argument that Hamas steals food.

We all agree that Hamas are the villains.

The expectation is that Israel is the good guys.

If it's your territory, you're the good guys, and you're ultimately responsible for the people in Gaza (don't tell me Hamas is responsible for them....they're the villains, remember?), then the answer can't be to starve the people to root out Hamas. Gaza is Bibi's responsibility.
Click to expand...

Israel hasn’t considered Gaza to be their territory since 2005.

Yes, villains have responsibilities too. By definition essentially villains are likely to neglect those responsibilities, but that doesn’t change the existence of their responsibilities.
 
#347
#347
Persian Vol said:
And I’m the one accused of being “emotional”? I’m addressing the logic of the claim, not the morality of hostage-taking. Spare me the straw man, questioning a simplistic cause-and-effect isn’t the same as endorsing the act.
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By refusing to admit that Hamas continuing to hold hostages has prolonged the war all the while condemning Israel for “genocide” is condoning Hamas holding hostages.
 
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#350
#350
Persian Vol said:
Saying proportionality “isn’t part of the calculus” concedes the core problem. Guerrilla warfare in cities makes civilian harm more likely, but that doesn’t make every civilian death unavoidable or acceptable. Arguing that it’s inevitable risks excusing tactics that could be changed to reduce harm, and shifting the focus to whether a critic can design a perfect war plan avoids answering whether the current one meets basic moral and legal standards.
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I've certainly not argued every civilian death is unavoidable or acceptable. Merely pointing out that was is hell and once set into motion atrocities by definition happen.

Has Israel targeted civilians, I believe so. Is it systematic, maybe. I believe both sides look at the other as vermin. A stain. And they treat each other that way. Israel just has power and resources Palestinians don't

It's why Ive come to the conclusion a two state solution can't work long term. I think they must live side by side. You'll trade short term pain and issues for a chance at long term stability.
 
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