War in Ukraine

#83,703
#83,703
LSU-SIU said:
I don't see that way, maybe because I feel like I broke the bounds of indoctrination? Nobody is a threat to you, nor is anyone really doing anything to you... the only way you have a problem in this country is internal. Maybe I feel different because of my travels and saw the world differently. What you are talking about failed about the time South Vietnam failed, "the communist are coming". Well, I hate to break to you... they're already here and they didn't need to fire a weapon.



I said, let;s start with being decent.... that is the problem.... what you are doing isn't friendly to anyone nor decent. Nor are you attempting to get along. We're not friends with Europe or the Ukraine, nor do I think we have been decent to the Ukraine.

Not being evil would be a great start. 🤷‍♂️
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your last goes to Russia as well. as always you just ignore the other half of the equation.

Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, Kazakhstan; Russia has used direct military force in all of those nations within my life time, ignoring what the USSR did. given how they treated Chechnya, and the ever ongoing issues in Siberia and around Mongolia, they aren't even kind to their own people. then you can look at their own censorship, state owned whatevers, killing of political enemies.

if anything your complaints about the US are because we are too similar to Russia. we should be doing everything we can to separate ourselves from Russia, not get closer with them.

I never brought up the communists, that is just you jousting with windmills again. The Russians themselves have never been friendly. there is no reason to be even decent with them.

what is demonstrably different between Russia and Ukraine where we should be decent to Russia, but not Ukraine? our decentness towards a country should match how much they align with us. and before you think that means we are evil, please point out any nation that is friendly or even decent to a nation they don't align with?
 
#83,704
#83,704
apevol said:
you want transparency from intelligence agencies?


why dont we just lube up our own buttholes ffs
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pay attention to how he doesn't suggest that Russia, or any other country, do the same.

its always just an expectation that the US should operate by some magical set of standards he doesn't uphold for anything else.

his stances aren't even internally consistent, its just American Exceptionalism after American Exceptionalism.
 
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#83,705
#83,705
LouderVol said:
your last goes to Russia as well. as always you just ignore the other half of the equation.

Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova, Kazakhstan; Russia has used direct military force in all of those nations within my life time, ignoring what the USSR did. given how they treated Chechnya, and the ever ongoing issues in Siberia and around Mongolia, they aren't even kind to their own people. then you can look at their own censorship, state owned whatevers, killing of political enemies.

if anything your complaints about the US are because we are too similar to Russia. we should be doing everything we can to separate ourselves from Russia, not get closer with them.

I never brought up the communists, that is just you jousting with windmills again. The Russians themselves have never been friendly. there is no reason to be even decent with them.

what is demonstrably different between Russia and Ukraine where we should be decent to Russia, but not Ukraine? our decentness towards a country should match how much they align with us. and before you think that means we are evil, please point out any nation that is friendly or even decent to a nation they don't align with?
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Oh, I'm sure back in the day it happened, I'm sure all those parties have grievances at one another. What does have to do with me or this happening in real-time?

what is demonstrably different between Russia and Ukraine where we should be decent to Russia, but not Ukraine?
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No, I would think we would want to be decent to both to be honest. We haven't been, which is why we are here. The U.S., Europeans, neocons and some of the Ukrainians got us here, but most of that is not material at this stage.

Sure be cool to everyone, as a generalization... there is always times to pull out a stick but you don't put two pitbulls into cage and willfully make them go at.
 
#83,706
#83,706
The Orange man is telling everyone where this is going, you're either on the train or off at some point.

Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump)

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump


Today, President Emmanuel Macron of France joined me in the Oval Office to speak to the G7 Summit. The meeting was convened by Governor Justin Trudeau of Canada, the current chair of G7, to acknowledge the Third Anniversary of the Russia-Ukraine War – Which would have never started if I was President. Everyone expressed their goal of seeing the War end, and I emphasized the importance of the vital “Critical Minerals and Rare-Earths Deal” between the United States and Ukraine, which we hope will be signed very soon! This deal, which is an “Economic Partnership,” will ensure the American people recoup the Tens of Billions of Dollars and Military Equipment sent to Ukraine, while also helping Ukraine’s economy grow as this Brutal and Savage War comes to an end. At the same time, I am in serious discussions with President Vladimir Putin of Russia concerning the ending of the War, and also major Economic Development transactions which will take place between the United States and Russia. Talks are proceeding very well!
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#83,707
#83,707
Amazing that in a little more than a month in office, The French President is in the White House and we are finally talking about an ending to this war. If Biden or Harris had won the election, we would be in for 4 more years of endless war and throwing massive amounts of money to Ukraine and not knowing where a lot of that money is actually going. Just night and day what real strong leadership can accomplish.
 
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#83,709
#83,709
dalton_vol said:
Lsu you seem butthurt. Are you this Limited in seeing that Ukraine cannot win this war unless Europe and America put soldiers in Ukraine.
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Butthurt, no? As you can see I am not happy with my government being involved in all this, but not much I could do about it. Glad the Orange man is at least pulling funding. 👍 If he can save lives, I guess that is good... but I don't see as necessary.


Are you this Limited in seeing that Ukraine cannot win this war unless Europe and America put soldiers in Ukraine.
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Nobody on this planet is going to win if America puts soldiers in the Ukraine to fight, everyone will lose.... permanently. However, obviously that doesn't seem like a concern anymore.

You can basically stick a fork in this one, Europe is now on deck (see my 2022 posts).
 
#83,710
#83,710
LSU-SIU said:
Oh, I'm sure back in the day it happened, I'm sure all those parties have grievances at one another. What does have to do with me or this happening in real-time?



No, I would think we would want to be decent to both to be honest. We haven't been, which is why we are here. The U.S., Europeans, neocons and some of the Ukrainians got us here, but most of that is not material at this stage.

Sure be cool to everyone, as a generalization... there is always times to pull out a stick but you don't put two pitbulls into cage and willfully make them go at.
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would you agree that being decent to someone would be to uphold existing agreements with them?

and how do you think people/nations should treat others who don't uphold their existing agreements?

its really hard to be decent to someone if you can't trust them.
 
#83,711
#83,711
LouderVol said:
would you agree that being decent to someone would be to uphold existing agreements with them?

and how do you think people/nations should treat others who don't uphold their existing agreements?

its really hard to be decent to someone if you can't trust them.
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As a generalization, sure on the first two, but logically there is pov and disputed facts from time to time. Also, sometimes you can break an agreement but still work in good faith to resolve issues. Agreements can be broken but a broken agreement isn't necessarily working in bad faith. Actually, you will see that in breach of contract suits where a party will claim someone worked in good faith, but all they did was break an agreement.

its really hard to be decent to someone if you can't trust them.
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I think you can be decent to people if you don't trust them, there are degrees to all this as well. I would say I'm decent to everyone unless there is a reason not to be. I don't necessarily trust strangers, but I'm generally decent to them.
 
#83,712
#83,712
LSU-SIU said:
As a generalization, sure on the first two, but logically there is pov and disputed facts from time to time. Also, sometimes you can break an agreement but still work in good faith to resolve issues. Agreements can be broken but a broken agreement isn't necessarily working in bad faith. Actually, you will see that in breach of contract suits where a party will claim someone worked in good faith, but all they did was break an agreement.



I think you can be decent to people if you don't trust them, there are degrees to all this as well. I would say I'm decent to everyone unless there is a reason not to be. I don't necessarily trust strangers, but I'm generally decent to them.
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if those disputed facts are spelt out in a written agreement that all sides signed onto, don't you think that would override any previous disagreement?

because this isn't a case of a stranger we have no relation with.

These are two people we know. we have worked with both in the past. been on the same side of some issues, and on the other side of other issues.

currently the three of us all have an agreement about respecting one of the groups property. then the third party in the agreement, breaks that agreement. In most people's eyes that SHOULD lead to us be favorable to the first group who we agreed to respect their property, while becoming much less favorable to the third group who broke the agreement.

your stance is we should be favorable to the person who broke the agreement, while being less favorable to the person we agreed to respect their rights on.
My stance is we should be favorable to the injured party based on the agreement. I have a limited level of favoritism compared to others who think we should just hand over everything to make the injured party whole.
 
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#83,713
#83,713
LouderVol said:
if those disputed facts are spelt out in a written agreement that all sides signed onto, don't you think that would override any previous disagreement?

because this isn't a case of a stranger we have no relation with.

These are two people we know. we have worked with both in the past. been on the same side of some issues, and on the other side of other issues.

currently the three of us all have an agreement about respecting one of the groups property. then the third party in the agreement, breaks that agreement. In most people's eyes that SHOULD lead to us be favorable to the first group who we agreed to respect their property, while becoming much less favorable to the third group who broke the agreement.

your stance is we should be favorable to the person who broke the agreement, while being less favorable to the person we agreed to respect their rights on.
My stance is we should be favorable to the injured party based on the agreement. I have a limited level of favoritism compared to others who think we should just hand over everything to make the injured party whole.
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I would say that is just person preference, without context its pretty hard to get into all that. I don't feel like our dealings with Ukraine/Europe are close on any decency standard. There just isn't any reason for the U.S. to operate like this and it doesn't matter how many agreements you have - its working in good faith, imo.
 
#83,717
#83,717
LSU-SIU said:
I would say that is just person preference, without context its pretty hard to get into all that. I don't feel like our dealings with Ukraine/Europe are close on any decency standard. There just isn't any reason for the U.S. to operate like this and it doesn't matter how many agreements you have - its working in good faith, imo.
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again, you are ignoring half of the equation. regardless of "decent", we aren't the only ones acting, or in this case, the first to act. and certainly not the worst actor.
 
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#83,718
#83,718
Orangeburst said:
in the writing..all that matters
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I don't think we are. Russia is. we both signed a piece of paper saying we would respect Ukraine's borders as long as they didn't have nuclear weapons or related systems. they still don't have any of that, so Ukraine didn't break the agreement. We haven't invaded Ukraine, so it wasn't us either.
 
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#83,719
#83,719
jwells said:
Lol, dude.
Expand your depth of knowledge.

The US-Russia-Ukraine Trilateral Statement and Annex​

Where'd the majority of the money go? To US arms manufacturers.

Our dollars helped prevent the capitulation of a sovereign state to an invading force. Jesus.
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You're adorable.
 
#83,720
#83,720
LouderVol said:
again, you are ignoring half of the equation. regardless of "decent", we aren't the only ones acting, or in this case, the first to act. and certainly not the worst actor.
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Its immaterially at this stage but as an American using my funds to overthrow governments is almost never justified, certainly not training people to blow up gaslines i.e. terrorism. The U.S. wasn't involved because someone was doing something wrong, the neocons set it up for money. Nothing more, nothing less. Why is everyone out now, no money to be made.... love you Ukraine, wish you the best.

You can justify anything you want but at the end of the day the Truth normally comes out and in this case Trump is saying it. If you think its your business, I'm fine with you suiting up and joining up. What went on there had no bearing on us in any real manner.... this will end very similar to all other U.S. engagements of this type i.e. not good.

Everyone is figuring out the Truth and it ain't pretty. Next up, Europe.
 
#83,721
#83,721
LSU-SIU said:
Its immaterially at this stage but as an American using my funds to overthrow governments is almost never justified, certainly not training people to blow up gaslines i.e. terrorism. The U.S. wasn't involved because someone was doing something wrong, the neocons set it up for money. Nothing more, nothing less. Why is everyone out now, no money to be made.... love you Ukraine, wish you the best.

You can justify anything you want but at the end of the day the Truth normally comes out and in this case Trump is saying it. If you think its your business, I'm fine with you suiting up and joining up. What went on there had no bearing on us in any real manner.... this will end very similar to all other U.S. engagements of this type i.e. not good.

Everyone is figuring out the Truth and it ain't pretty. Next up, Europe.
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just because people make money from it doesn't mean it was holely a set up/creation of ours.

these people they make money regardless of what happens. they play both sides, always have, always will.
 
#83,722
#83,722
LouderVol said:
just because people make money from it doesn't mean it was holely a set up/creation of ours.

these people they make money regardless of what happens. they play both sides, always have, always will.
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The neocons set it up, whether its U.S. government, elected officials, corporate, civilians, and/or foreign actors.

Yes, they make money at it, that is why the set them one up after the other.... you always have to have the next one ready. In this case, they were hoping for Russia, the fallback was eastern europe. Either way Europe is going to be in big trouble. The big one was splitting up Russia into pieces.... the neocons have this setup pretty great (something I probably said years ago)... onto Europe.
 
#83,724
#83,724
volbound1700 said:
Really good grasp of situation. You also have to consider that China is the one winning hear as USA goes into further debt to help Ukraine while Russia is bleeding itself in this war.
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One could certainly argue that this is a short term win for China, but long term they are in really bad shape. There is more than one reason that it is now a bi-partisan issue that critical manufacturing gets moved out of China. Their one child policy of the past is coming back to haunt them, and they have an aging population problem that is much greater than the U.S. or Europe. They are on the way to financial ruin over the next decade or two and there is nothing that can stop it. When bad things like that happen you can get upheaval, and we don't want to be relying on them for critical manufacturing going forward not just for the whole jobs deal, but because we may not get any of said manufacturing because it may be sporadic coming from them or non existent, shutting U.S. manufactures down.
 
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