War in Ukraine

[NorthDallas40]

Here is the part of the agreement covering the security assurance or guarantee (whatever you decide to call it). IMO it was all parties assuring Ukraine that they wouldn't violate Ukraine's sovereignty and would appeal to the UN Security council should it be violated. No mention of aid, military force or anything like that. We assured Ukraine we wouldn't attack them.

It starts on page 192 through 205 so not a long read.

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume 3007/v3007.pdf

Here is a specific link on just this agreement. All three languages are included. One says assurances. The other two say guarantees.

UNTC

treaties.un.org

 

[NorthDallas40]

Here's something from 40's link which has a different flavor that your post:

Additionally, Ukrainian and U.S. negotiators Borys Tarasyuk and Steven Pifer recalled that in the discussions about the Budapest Memorandum, U.S. negotiators promised orally that the United States would take a strong interest and respond to any Russian violations of the agreement or the “memorandum’s spirit.” While the United States’s verbal promise can be considered as an understanding of its commitments under the agreement or an oral security commitment adjacent to the memorandum, there is no public information about who made this specific commitment or about the precise scope of the response the U.S. negotiator had mentioned at the time. However, according to Pifer, who later served as U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, while the parties allegedly did not discuss details of the U.S. response under this commitment, in his opinion, the response should involve military assistance.

And this excerpt is an example of exactly why Ukraine were morons for signing it.

 

[hog88]

Here's something from 40's link which has a different flavor that your post:

Additionally, Ukrainian and U.S. negotiators Borys Tarasyuk and Steven Pifer recalled that in the discussions about the Budapest Memorandum, U.S. negotiators promised orally that the United States would take a strong interest and respond to any Russian violations of the agreement or the “memorandum’s spirit.” While the United States’s verbal promise can be considered as an understanding of its commitments under the agreement or an oral security commitment adjacent to the memorandum, there is no public information about who made this specific commitment or about the precise scope of the response the U.S. negotiator had mentioned at the time. However, according to Pifer, who later served as U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, while the parties allegedly did not discuss details of the U.S. response under this commitment, in his opinion, the response should involve military assistance.

Irrelevant IMO. If it's not in writing it didn't happen.

 

[hog88]

Here is a specific link on just this agreement. All three languages are included. One says assurances. The other two say guarantees.

UNTC

treaties.un.org

Yeah, I linked the PDF found in your link.

 

[NorthDallas40]

My link is to the actual document so you can read and decide for yourself.

So is mine. All three languages too

 

[NorthDallas40]

Irrelevant IMO. If it's not in writing it didn't happen.

We agree on this.

 

[McDad]

And this excerpt is an example of exactly why Ukraine were morons for signing it.

Your thoughts on hog's link which doesn't specify we are to supply anything but only specifies we won't attack?

 

[NorthDallas40]

Yeah, I linked the PDF found in your link.

Eh not exactly. The actual document in all three languages is less than 20 pages I believe.

 

[hog88]

Eh not exactly. The actual document in all three languages is less than 20 pages I believe.

No, it is a few hundred.

 

[McDad]

Eh not exactly. The actual document in all three languages is less than 20 pages I believe.

No, it is a few hundred.

If yall were Eastern European countries, you'd already be at war.

 

[hog88]

If yall were Eastern European countries, you'd already be at war.

ND40 hasn't opened the link. Maybe he will and come back with hat in hand.

Plus he's a Texan, he'd need us to fight it for him.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Your thoughts on hog's link which doesn't specify we are to supply anything?

As I’ve said it’s ambiguous as hell and as the link I have you illustrates anybody can pretty much get whatever they want out of it. It’s a freaking horrible document.

My major hang up is they gave up the world’s third largest nuclear stockpile for a promise we would assist. And their document that they solicited inside their parliament says guarantees.

Honestly I think the whole document is disingenuous as hell and never should have been executed as written. But… it was signed and they’ve come calling with what they believe we agreed to.

 

[whodeycin85]

Are you sympathetic to Russia or Putin because they hate the libs and the Ds?

Not at all..I don't think his opinion matters in our affairs...

 

[MontyPython]

If yall were Eastern European countries, you'd already be at war.

And have B.O.

 

[NorthDallas40]

No, it is a few hundred.

I believe your link is the entire library of all documents executed for a specific time period.

 

[BeardedVol]

Ok, again. How far do we go in order to fulfill the promise you believe we made?

I already stated, since we didn't put any metrics in the agreement, until Ukraine's sovereignty is restored to that of the time of the signing.

 

[NorthDallas40]

ND40 hasn't opened the link. Maybe he will and come back with hat in hand.

Plus he's a Texan, he'd need us to fight it for him.

Yeah… about that …

This is another time where you aren’t wrong it’s just that you aren’t right.

 

[McDad]

I believe your link is the entire library of all documents executed for a specific time period.

After the chewing Hog's wife gave him, if he's wrong about this he may never recover emotionally

 

[hog88]

As I’ve said it’s ambiguous as hell and as the link I have you illustrates anybody can pretty much get whatever they want out of it. It’s a freaking horrible document.

My major hang up is they gave up the world’s third largest nuclear stockpile for a promise we would assist. And their document that they solicited inside their parliament says guarantees.

Honestly I think the whole document is disingenuous as hell and never should have been executed as written. But… it was signed and they’ve come calling with what they believe we agreed to.

This isn't very ambiguous.

 

[NorthDallas40]

This isn't very ambiguous.

View attachment 647649

The whole damn thing is ambiguous

 

[McDad]

I already stated, since we didn't put any metrics in the agreement, until Ukraine's sovereignty is restored to that of the time of the signing.

I now understand better why you couldn't answer what I thought were simple questions about the agreement.

 

[hog88]

I believe your link is the entire library of all documents executed for a specific time period.

It is the entire agreement in all languages. What is applicable to this discussion starts on page 192.

 

[hog88]

I already stated, since we didn't put any metrics in the agreement, until Ukraine's sovereignty is restored to that of the time of the signing.

Even if that requires US troops on the ground fighting?

 

[hog88]

Yeah… about that …

This is another time where you aren’t wrong it’s just that you aren’t right.

Sorry bro but you done lived there too long. Yous a Texican.

 

[whodeycin85]

Yeah, Germany is far more capable as an aggressor than Russia from a capability perspective AND

although Russia is aggressive, their goals are far more limited and less nefarious than Hitler.

IMO, Putin just wants to make Russia a world power again by retaking former Republics of the USSR (or making them vassals) while Hitler literally wanted to kill most the Slavic people of Europe and replace them with Germans on their lands (well maybe not kill them but drive them out of Eastern Europe).

THIS was my point...