The (many) indictments of Donald Trump

#5,477
#5,477
RockyTop85 said:
No idea. Donā€™t know why thatā€™s relevant in light of what Iā€™ve written below.




No.

The archivist doesnā€™t get to decide which votes to accept. If the archivist is the one who got to decide, then why couldnā€™t the party who appointed the archivist just run this same scheme for every election with the knowledge that the archivist would only accept their electorā€™s votes?

Maybe if there was a law that strictly defined which votes the archivist had to select, and could therefore be predictably enforced by courts, but even then I donā€™t want some appointed flunky resolving a legitimate dispute if one ever arises.

The law that does exist gives the task to congress. It is poorly written but at least the people tasked with the decision are our representatives, unlike the archivist.

Thereā€™s not some magical force that prevents the losing party from submitting an alternate certificate of ascertainment. Again, that should be common decency and respect for voters, the constitution, and electoral process but in the event that all of that fails to be sufficient Iā€™m fine with criminal prosecution as a backstop.
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If they couldn't get their fake electoral certifications into the system I think it is very relevant. If they were able to get their fake certifications into the system that's very relevant also because it points to bigger problems.
 
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#5,479
#5,479
hog88 said:
How would fake electors submit a vote?
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As the Peter Navarro strategy held, Mike Pence would refuse to count the electoral votes from key selected swing states Georgia, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan and Arizona on January 6, 2021. This would send the vote back to those Republican-controlled state legislatures, who would then appoint their own electors - these alternate slates of electors - who would then submit their votes for Trump ... which Pence would then include in the roll call of the electoral college vote during certification.

There is zero rationale for this being a viable strategy in the United States Constitution, but that was the theory from Trump's side.
 
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#5,480
#5,480
BowlBrother85 said:
As the Peter Navarro strategy held, Mike Pence would refuse to count the electoral votes from key selected swing states Georgia, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan and Arizona on January 6, 2021. This would send the vote back to the those Republican-controlled state legislatures, who would then appoint their own electors - these alternate slates of electors - who would then submit their votes for Trump ... which Pence would then include in the roll call of the electoral college vote during certification.

There is zero rationale for this being a viable strategy in the United States Constitution, but that was the theory from Trump's side.
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The people that don't know these details are people who don't want to know these details.

I'm surprised you haven't figured that out yet. It's an exercise in futility to continue efforts to debate it
 
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#5,481
#5,481
hog88 said:
If they couldn't get their fake electoral certifications into the system I think it is very relevant. If they were able to get their fake certifications into the system that's very relevant also because it points to bigger problems.
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How is it relevant if they ā€œcouldnā€™t get their fake certifications into the system?ā€ I donā€™t even know what that means. They got together and drafted them, signed them, and sent them. They were received and catalogued, just like the other 50 sets.

Iā€™m not 100% sure what happened to them after that, but my recollection is that Pence and congress chose to validate the authentic electoral college votes over the objection of a handful of members.

In addition to all that, there is a trove of evidence of the ā€œfake electorsā€™ā€ intent. There is a trove of evidence of the Trump campaign directing it. There is at least significant circumstantial evidence of his direct involvement. I hope that they donā€™t charge him without more than circumstantial evidence just because of his political position, but Iā€™m not sure how there is not a legitimate legal case.
 
#5,482
#5,482
hog88 said:
How? Did they mail them, fax them, email them? Is the submittal of electoral votes not secure or have some authentication process?
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Some attempted to submit fake electoral votes by courier but were declined by Congressman who did not want there fingerprints on them because they knew they were illegal and by not accepting or participating had plausible deniability. I will help you plant the seed but I am not going to tend to the plant until I see some substantial growth.
 
#5,483
#5,483
RockyTop85 said:
How is it relevant if they ā€œcouldnā€™t get their fake certifications into the system?ā€ I donā€™t even know what that means. They got together and drafted them, signed them, and sent them. They were received and catalogued, just like the other 50 sets.

Iā€™m not 100% sure what happened to them after that, but my recollection is that Pence and congress chose to validate the authentic electoral college votes over the objection of a handful of members.

In addition to all that, there is a trove of evidence of the ā€œfake electorsā€™ā€ intent. There is a trove of evidence of the Trump campaign directing it. There is at least significant circumstantial evidence of his direct involvement. I hope that they donā€™t charge him without more than circumstantial evidence just because of his political position, but Iā€™m not sure how there is not a legitimate legal case.
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Trump MAY BE insulted to a certain degree, but some of his front line advisors have testified before the GJ. I'm not sure any covered for him
 
#5,484
#5,484
Sudden Impact said:
Some attempted to submit fake electoral votes by courier but were declined by Congressman who did not want there fingerprints on them because they knew they were illegal and by not accepting or participating had plausible deniability. I will help you plant the seed but I am not going to tend to the plant until I see some substantial growth.
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So how did they all end up at the national archives to be FOIAā€™d by March 2021?
 
#5,485
#5,485
BowlBrother85 said:
As the Peter Navarro strategy held, Mike Pence would refuse to count the electoral votes from key selected swing states Georgia, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan and Arizona on January 6, 2021. This would send the vote back to the those Republican-controlled state legislatures, who would then appoint their own electors - these alternate slates of electors - who would then submit their votes for Trump ... which Pence would then include in the roll call of the electoral college vote during certification.

There is zero rationale for this being a viable strategy in the United States Constitution, but that was the theory from Trump's side.
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Is that what the people in MI did?
 
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#5,486
#5,486
RockyTop85 said:
How is it relevant if they ā€œcouldnā€™t get their fake certifications into the system?ā€ I donā€™t even know what that means. They got together and drafted them, signed them, and sent them. They were received and catalogued, just like the other 50 sets.

Iā€™m not 100% sure what happened to them after that, but my recollection is that Pence and congress chose to validate the authentic electoral college votes over the objection of a handful of members.

In addition to all that, there is a trove of evidence of the ā€œfake electorsā€™ā€ intent. There is a trove of evidence of the Trump campaign directing it. There is at least significant circumstantial evidence of his direct involvement. I hope that they donā€™t charge him without more than circumstantial evidence just because of his political position, but Iā€™m not sure how there is not a legitimate legal case.
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If that is the case then it points to major security issues within the elector system. And yes if they went that far I can see why they were charged.
 
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#5,487
#5,487
BernardKingGOAT said:
Trump MAY BE insulted to a certain degree, but some of his front line advisors have testified before the GJ. I'm not sure any covered for him
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I suspect he was involved and that there may be evidence of that. If there is a state that could convincingly establish his direct involvement, it is Georgia.

I just think that if we are going to get into indicting political figures then the evidence needs to be strong, not some Alexei Navalny ****.
 
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#5,488
#5,488
BowlBrother85 said:
As the Peter Navarro strategy held, Mike Pence would refuse to count the electoral votes from key selected swing states Georgia, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan and Arizona on January 6, 2021. This would send the vote back to the those Republican-controlled state legislatures, who would then appoint their own electors - these alternate slates of electors - who would then submit their votes for Trump ... which Pence would then include in the roll call of the electoral college vote during certification.

There is zero rationale for this being a viable strategy in the United States Constitution, but that was the theory from Trump's side.
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So then if Pence didn't send them back then nothing could happen with the electors correct?
 
#5,489
#5,489
RockyTop85 said:
I suspect he was involved and that there may be evidence of that. If there is a state that could convincingly establish his direct involvement, it is Georgia.

I just think that if we are going to get into indicting political figures then the evidence needs to be strong, not some Alexei Navalny ****.
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Plus the phone call asking to find "11,000" votes. Trump knows his supporters don't/won't watch or listen to the documentation
 
#5,490
#5,490
whodeycin85 said:
So then if Pence didn't send them back then nothing could happen with the electors correct?
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Right. The system worked as it should.

However, that doesn't make Peter Navarro's strategy any less stupid. Basically, he believed that the Vice President had the power to overturn the outcome of his own defeat. Is that a power that Republicans want Kamala Harris to have in January of 2025? Probably not, right?
 
#5,491
#5,491
BernardKingGOAT said:
Trump MAY BE insulted to a certain degree, but some of his front line advisors have testified before the GJ. I'm not sure any covered for him
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Mark Meadows has been awfully quiet the last several months. Could be nothing or he could have flipped and spilled his guts for immunity.
 
#5,493
#5,493
BowlBrother85 said:
Right. The system worked as it should.

However, that doesn't make Peter Navarro's strategy any less stupid. Basically, he believed that the Vice President had the power to overturn the outcome of his own defeat. Is that a power that Republicans want Kamala Harris to have in January of 2025? Probably not, right?
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Stupid yes.... legality is the question.... Are electors selected before the election??
 
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#5,494
#5,494
TN Ribs said:
Mark Meadows has been awfully quiet the last several months. Could be nothing or he could have flipped and spilled his guts for immunity.
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Meadows???? šŸ¤£šŸ¤£šŸ¤£

You have to be 99.999999% certain he flipped. I guess there's a slight chance his inconspicuousness might lead to a VP slot šŸ˜‚
 
#5,495
#5,495
hog88 said:
If that is the case then it points to major security issues within the elector system. And yes if they went that far I can see why they were charged.
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I donā€™t want NARA deciding which votes get counted. It should be congress and courts should make sure they follow state law.

The problems, IMO, are that the law that governs what congress does isnā€™t very clear and leaves open the possibility that this could work. Courts would probably undo it but there was some expectation that that was in the bag, too. The other problem, to me, is that prosecuting people under broad statutes may be too much of a deterrent. There needs to be a law (or law + constitutional amendment) that explicitly lays out the procedure and articulates how congress will decide the authentic votes in the event of a legitimate dispute and that criminalizes fraudulently submitted votes but excludes alternate slates that are submitted in good faith from prosecution.*

*- E.g. the false electors in PA and NM wrote on the document that their votes were submitted only in case Trump prevailed in his legal challenges in their state. I donā€™t think thatā€™s criminal.
 
#5,500
#5,500
Orangeslice13 said:
It amazes me that these tribal dipsticks donā€™t realize that the tides turn and one day youā€™ll be on the other side of this stupidity
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Wouldnā€™t count on it but I sure hope so. Hopefully the next R president hands out a ton of pardons and goes after the Biden crime family, their pals in the FBI and DOJ and hacks like jack smith
 
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