War in Ukraine

[McDad]

The military uses the same infrastructure as the civilians use. War is a brutal nasty business and when countries decide war is their only option they do their soldiers a disservice, actually they betray their fighting men when they tie their hands.

I've said before, with a lot of understandable resistance from my friends on the PF, if the hell of war is absolutely necessary, I would wage it with a "no holds barred anything is allowed" brutality to win asap.

 

[hog88]

Is attempting to tie US support for Ukraine to NATO defense spending by other members, part of your hyper-partisan schtick or something?

You are the one who has attempted to link the two in some way, so I'm not sure why you are getting bent out of shape that someone would ask you why you feel that they are inexorably linked in some way.

How in the hell can you honestly say they are not linked? If you are going to use the excuse that we must spend our resources to stop Russian expansion how can you excuse NATO countries that are not meeting their spending obligations on their defense?

 

[LouderVol]

The military uses the same infrastructure as the civilians use. War is a brutal nasty business and when countries decide war is their only option they do their soldiers a disservice, actually they betray their fighting men when they tie their hands.

On the front lines I agree. but does striking a hospital 1000 kilometers from the front line do a disservice to the troops?

and remember their entire argument this entire time is that Russia is fighting the most civilian friendly war ever.

this is them talking out of both sides of their mouth. Its fine when Russia does something, but its not ok when the US or Ukraine does the same thing. thats why he gets called out.

 

[hog88]

I've said before, with a lot of understandable resistance from my friends on the PF, if the hell of war is absolutely necessary, I would wage it with a "no holds barred anything is allowed" brutality to win asap.

Agreed.

 

[LouderVol]

I've said before, with a lot of understandable resistance from my friends on the PF, if the hell of war is absolutely necessary, I would wage it with a "no holds barred anything is allowed" brutality to win asap.

thats a fair point. but its not the point our Russian apologists are making.

they are trying to conflate two contradictory arguments to justify their stances.

 

[MontyPython]

Russia now scraping the bottom of the barrel pulling out t-54 tanks. Pathetic.

 

[McDad]

thats a fair point. but its not the point our Russian apologists are making.

they are trying to conflate two contradictory arguments to justify their stances.

Understood.
I never got invested in the Ukraine war so I don't have much to offer on that topic. So I offered my general thoughts on war and how I disagree with a "professional's approach" to warring.

 

[BeardedVol]

How in the hell can you honestly say they are not linked? If you are going to use the excuse that we must spend our resources to stop Russian expansion how can you excuse NATO countries that are not meeting their spending obligations on their defense?

Again I'll ask you, if all of the rest of NATO had met their 2% of GDP for defense spending, would that somehow have alleviated the US' obligations under the Budapest Memorandum, to guarantee Ukraine's sovereignty and borders, for giving up the Soviet-era nuclear weapons?

 

[hog88]

On the front lines I agree. but does striking a hospital 1000 kilometers from the front line do a disservice to the troops?

and remember their entire argument this entire time is that Russia is fighting the most civilian friendly war ever.

this is them talking out of both sides of their mouth. Its fine when Russia does something, but its not ok when the US or Ukraine does the same thing. thats why he gets called out.

I agree that the Putinistas are nothing but hypocrites but so are many of the Ukrainiacs.

IMO it's not a good idea to specifically target non military facilities, hospitals, schools ext but the truth is always the first casualty in war. Just like the Russians using completely BS propaganda on Ukraine targeting civilians the Ukrainians do the same.

 

[hog88]

Again I'll ask you, if all of the rest of NATO had met their 2% of GDP for defense spending, would that somehow have alleviated the US' obligations under the Budapest Memorandum, to guarantee Ukraine's sovereignty and borders, for giving up the Soviet-era nuclear weapons?

Our obligation under the Budapest Memorandum is to provide assistance, nothing on what that looks like or how much is specified. It's a dishonest justification for the amount of money we are spending on Ukraine.

You are trying to conflate 2 separate issues so I will make it clear. Nobody can use the excuse "we must stop Russian expansion" to justify our expenditures on Ukraine while excusing NATO countries that would actually be threatened by Russian expansion not meeting their defense spending obligations.

 

[Volsdeep4]

Since when? I know we impose some idiotic rules on ourselves but war is war, if you don't want to be a target GTFO.

As I agree with that statement the sentiment still stands. Russia used a guided drone and hit civilian infrastructure. He said Russia doesn’t target civilians.

 

[hog88]

As I agree with that statement the sentiment still stands. Russia used a guided drone and hit civilian infrastructure. He said Russia doesn’t target civilians.

Yes, he is FOS.

 

[KB5252]

The ironic thing is, same as it was a year ago when you yahoos were screaming about Russia allegedly targeting civilians (they werent), is the Ukrainians have been targeting civilians for years and are still indiscriminately bombing civilian areas, not only in Donbas but at times inside of Russia, with the help of the West. So spare me the fake tears.

Russia is shelling and bombing civilian areas as well. I stated this is what what happens in war. You denied Russia was doing this. I and others have given instances where they have. Russia is not a stoic, virtuous knight fighting for values.

They are seizing a neighbors industrial areas and natural resources. Nothing more. They are the bully who's had their nose bloodied and fought into a bogged down conflict. They send missiles into Kyiv with the intent to break Ukraine's will to fight, that is intentionally targeting civilians areas/buildings.

This simply cannot be denied. Ukraine has targeted Russian civilians as well. Quit assigning virtue to the attackers and demonizing the defenders.......... It's not a good look.

 

[Volsdeep4]

The ironic thing is, same as it was a year ago when you yahoos were screaming about Russia allegedly targeting civilians (they werent), is the Ukrainians have been targeting civilians for years and are still indiscriminately bombing civilian areas, not only in Donbas but at times inside of Russia, with the help of the West. So spare me the fake tears.

You’re missing everything. You said russia wasn’t attacking civilians. We are proving to you otherwise. No one has said Ukraine didn’t attack civilians.

 

[Hunerwadel]

Look I understand that you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer and your support for Ukraine comes from your blind loyalty to the current administration. But this take is just dumb.

If NATO countries refuse to meet their obligations on defense spending then they obviously are not worried about Russian expansion touching them. Which has been an excuse for the US spending billions on Ukraine. Aid to Ukraine should be primarily coming from those countries "threatened" by Russian expansion (Europe) with us filling in some gaps. If a NATO country can't even meet their military spending requirements for their own defense then f^ck 'em, let's keep our money at home.

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."

I still believe this and I don't GAS what other nations are doing or not doing. If democracy and liberty are going to to not only survive but thrive we are going to have to lead the way in every facet of the fight. I will give everything I own to prevent my kids and grandkids from living under a dictator. I'm not one bit afraid of being broke and poor. I was born that way. I am afraid of living with a boot on my neck.

Edit: Don't think for a a minute that the ultimate goal of China and Russia isn't to destroy democracy in the entire world.

 

[volgr]

Not really surprised...the only area where the west is convincingly winning this conflict is in the propaganda war.

 

[volgr]

You’re missing everything. You said russia wasn’t attacking civilians. We are proving to you otherwise. No one has said Ukraine didn’t attack civilians.

Russia isn't TARGETING civilians. Yes, it is war, many Ukrainian citizens have been killed but Russia isn't targeting them. There is a HUGE difference.

 

[McDad]

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."

I still believe this and I don't GAS what other nations are doing or not doing. If democracy and liberty are going to to not only survive but thrive we are going to have to lead the way in every facet of the fight. I will give everything I own to prevent my kids and grandkids from living under a dictator. I'm not one bit afraid of being broke and poor. I was born that way. I am afraid of living with a boot on my neck.

Edit: Don't think for a a minute that the ultimate goal of China and Russia isn't to destroy democracy in the entire world.

Isn't that a Churchill quote?

I agree with your sentiment if/when we are under direct attack. I disagree we have to send our troops to die to oppose an indirect threat.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Russia isn't TARGETING civilians. Yes, it is war, many Ukrainian citizens have been killed but Russia isn't targeting them. There is a HUGE difference.

Then they absolutely suck at targeting with “precision” weapons Larry.

 

[volgr]

"Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe to assure the survival and the success of liberty."

I still believe this and I don't GAS what other nations are doing or not doing. If democracy and liberty are going to to not only survive but thrive we are going to have to lead the way in every facet of the fight. I will give everything I own to prevent my kids and grandkids from living under a dictator. I'm not one bit afraid of being broke and poor. I was born that way. I am afraid of living with a boot on my neck.

Edit: Don't think for a a minute that the ultimate goal of China and Russia isn't to destroy democracy in the entire world.

And if those at the top just happen make a killing while "spreading democracy", so be it. I am sure the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi citizens are grateful to having been part of the US "spreading democracy". I get that some people buy into this spreading democracy propaganda, but I don't get it.

 

[jmacvols1]

Jack Posobiec
@JackPosobiec
9m
It turns out Adam Kinzinger and Malcolm Nance have been promoting a guy (James Vasquez) for months who wasn't actually a soldier and was just taking photos in front of destroyed tanks in Ukraine all along.
If the entire media fell for this LARPer why should we trust any other of their Ukraine reporting?
Kinzinger’s favorite Ukraine hero just deleted his account after it came out he is a fraud.
Hi Newsweek! You have some explaining to do.

Baron of the Taiga
@baronitaigas
59m
: James Vasquez has deleted his Twitter account after being exposed as a fraud, a scammer, and a LARPer.

 

[Volsdeep4]

Russia isn't TARGETING civilians. Yes, it is war, many Ukrainian citizens have been killed but Russia isn't targeting them. There is a HUGE difference.

you’re impossible. Thank you for showing your ignorance so I can quit wasting time with you.

 

[KB5252]

Russia isn't TARGETING civilians. Yes, it is war, many Ukrainian citizens have been killed but Russia isn't targeting them. There is a HUGE difference.

They are targeting civilians areas in Kyiv, any way you crack an egg it's still an egg. They are targeting civilians areas which means they are intentionally targeting civilians. They want to break the Ukraine and their will to fight. It's no different than Hiroshima or Dresden except in scale, and Dresden was a more strategic military target.

 

[KB5252]

Then they absolutely suck at targeting with “precision” weapons Larry.

You can only choose 1

 

[Paper_Towel]

We didn't have to worry about Russia and yet we're spending billions to defeat a 2nd rate military that was no threat to us on the battlefield while our #1 threat China is increasing it's capabilities. No, not a good investment.