Kellie Harper discussion/debate thread [merged]

[lvocd]

Sadly, Kellie could have taken the high ground but she does not like to change her position.

This is the one thing about Kellie I cannot get past. It was obvious she struggles with change, but when she got frustrated enough during that interview to actually say the words "I don't like change," I was kinda gutted. I was gutted because I suspect those four spoken words will hurt her going forward.

I've known people like that, and those I've known were organized beyond belief and highly intelligent, hard-working people. But their aversion to change made them stubbornly ignore some problems because facing them meant change might be expected.

I wish Kellie would get a good psychologist to help her overcome that so maybe she could save her career. Seriously.

 

[madtownvol]

I just can't get out of my head how different this season likely would have played out if Tamari Key hadn't unknowingly come into it with blood clots in her lungs. Everything went south quickly as, quite possibly, even her teammates may have had some doubts about her desire and effort. She was out there giving her all but going nowhere fast, and only after extensive testing and a persistent parent, everyone finds out she was lucky to have not died out there trying to play. And then when she didn't look as good as she did last season, being vilified on social media.

Meanwhile the losses, and the stress of what everyone finally came to understand about Tamari's condition, had already taken their toll.

And all THAT stress led to a suspension of another star player, as well as a scary injury to another top player. Confidence tanked, and losses piled up.

I fully believe if Tamari were completely healthy our season would be at a much different place today. Key had become one of the more dominant defensive stoppers in the country by season's end LAST year, so there's no reason to believe she wouldn't have, in her senior season, absolutely crushed it this season. Having her, Jackson, Horston, Hollingshead/Franklin and Tess all year? Come on. We have to know Kellie would be looking a lot better these days.

Did the injury to Tamari really lead to Rickea's suspension? Sorry but its just hard for me to envision that chain of events.

No doubt, Key's injury changed things. But a top tier coach figures out how to reconfigure things. She still had Horston and Jackson, one of the most dangerous one-two punches in the country. Last season it was the injury to our back-up post that sent the team into a tailspin. It is rare where a team has a season where it does not lose a key player to injury and those situations tend highlight the limitations of a coach. In fairness, the team and Kellie did adapt to the loss of Burrell. But here is the thing, wing players are peripheral to Kellie's post dominant system. She could only make Rickea work by turning her into Dennis Rodman incarnate. It is the rigidness of her coaching approach that proving problematic.

I say that as a "Kellie fan" but this season is showing she is not capable of zigging when her comfortable routine zag moves are not available.

 

[madtownvol]

This is the one thing about Kellie I cannot get past. It was obvious she struggles with change, but when she got frustrated enough during that interview to actually say the words "I don't like change," I was kinda gutted. I was gutted because I suspect those four spoken words will hurt her going forward.

I've known people like that, and those I've known were organized beyond belief and highly intelligent, hard-working people. But their aversion to change made them stubbornly ignore some problems because facing them meant change might be expected.

I wish Kellie would get a good psychologist to help her overcome that so maybe she could save her career. Seriously.

That is exactly how I feel......

 

[glv98]

Yeah I don't think losing TK was "It", there probably wasn't one major It. Just a series of unfortuante events. The overschedule first and foremost, Rickeagate, TK injury, etc. etc. I'm not sure how KJH misread her team so badly in the six months she had before they ever hit the floor. That part baffles me.

I think back to how hard it was to get Rae re-integrated in the chemistry last year after her injury. Seemed way more difficult than it should have been. Wonder if that should have been our first clue about what would happen this fall.

 

[Coach Jumper]

...Justine will come back next year a stronger more confident player, and she will play a lot, maybe as a starter. Looking forward to great things for Justine.

So Tess will take a step back next year and let Justine fill her shoes?
Tess will be here next year, unless she declares to go into the WNBA draft

 

[Coach Jumper]

This is the one thing about Kellie I cannot get past. It was obvious she struggles with change, but when she got frustrated enough during that interview to actually say the words "I don't like change," I was kinda gutted. I was gutted because I suspect those four spoken words will hurt her going forward.

I've known people like that, and those I've known were organized beyond belief and highly intelligent, hard-working people. But their aversion to change made them stubbornly ignore some problems because facing them meant change might be expected.

I wish Kellie would get a good psychologist to help her overcome that so maybe she could save her career. Seriously.

An excellent idea,,,I can be there tomorrow

 

[lvocd]

Did the injury to Tamari really lead to Rickea's suspension? Sorry but its just hard for me to envision that chain of events.
.

Indirectly, I suspect, it did. Look at how upset and inappropriately Rickea acted after a couple of those losses before the suspension. She was obviously extremely frustrated and angry and, I'm guessing, took all that out on her teammates, which is likely why she was suspended.

Jackson came to Tennessee as an all-American talent who had never even been to the NCAA Tournament. Before the season she was excited about the likelihood that she will FINALLY get to fulfill her dream of playing in the tournament.

And so when the bottom fell out early, and she became scared she'd miss out on it AGAIN, I can VERY easily see her using her sharp tongue (anyone paying close attention will have noticed it, too) to vent on her teammates with. I can almost hear the blaming tirade.

Lessons were learned, thank goodness.

 

[glv98]

So Tess will take a step back next year and let Justine fill her shoes?
Tess will be here next year, unless she declares to go into the WNBA draft

Too lame even for you. So JP can ONLY play Tess' minutes? Case you missed it, there's an abundance of mins available for next yr. in many positions.

Also I think you're mocking Tess re the WNBA and I'm sure you know she's long said she'd be here two more years, using her covid season.

Why are we doing this to Tess again?

 

[Lurker]

This is the one thing about Kellie I cannot get past. It was obvious she struggles with change, but when she got frustrated enough during that interview to actually say the words "I don't like change," I was kinda gutted. I was gutted because I suspect those four spoken words will hurt her going forward.

I've known people like that, and those I've known were organized beyond belief and highly intelligent, hard-working people. But their aversion to change made them stubbornly ignore some problems because facing them meant change might be expected.

I wish Kellie would get a good psychologist to help her overcome that so maybe she could save her career. Seriously.

I know coach said that, but it doesn't seem to me to be actually true. If it is true, her constant effort to mix and match strange lineups would have her over the edge by now. The only sure thing about her game time lineups is that, regardless of what is happening on the court, it is about to change, utilizing, of course, only a particular portion of the roster.

 

[glv98]

Indirectly, I suspect, it did. Look at how upset and inappropriately Rickea acted after a couple of those losses before the suspension. She was obviously extremely frustrated and angry and, I'm guessing, took all that out on her teammates, which is likely why she was suspended.

Jackson came to Tennessee as an all-American talent who had never even been to the NCAA Tournament. Before the season she was excited about the likelihood that she will FINALLY get to fulfill her dream of playing in the tournament.

And so when the bottom fell out early, and she became scared she'd miss out on it AGAIN, I can VERY easily see her using her sharp tongue (anyone paying close attention will have noticed it, too) to vent on her teammates with. I can almost hear the blaming tirade.

Lessons were learned, thank goodness.

Timings wrong. Whatever happened w RJ (and I haven't been able to read the article) happened before TK went out. She was already serving her suspension the night TK was diagnosed just before the Chattanooga game. Hard to forget she had sat out the Virginia Tech game a few days earlier, costing us that game.

Also, the only acting out I remember after a game was skipping the handshake line in one of the games in the Bahamas, also way before TK went out.

The rest sounds like alot of speculation.

 

[Lurker]

Too lame even for you. So JP can ONLY play Tess' minutes? Case you missed it, there's an abundance of mins available for next yr. in many positions.

Also I think you're mocking Tess re the WNBA and I'm sure you know she's long said she'd be here two more years, using her covid season.

Why are we doing this to Tess again?

The tendency to think about Ms. Darby when considering the freshman's playing time is because both are predominantly outside shooters and both appear to currently have similar athletic deficits. I agree with you that Tess Darby should not be the only focus to find Ms. Pissott time. But I do think some of her minutes should have been going to Justine for many games. That is not "doing" something to Ms. Darby. It is a competitive situation and, with all due respect, Pissott would reasonably seem to have a much higher ceiling as a player. Maybe I'm wrong. No desire to offend Darby. She gives her all for Tennessee every game.

 

[lvocd]

Timings wrong. Whatever happened w RJ (and I haven't been able to read the article) happened before TK went out. She was already serving her suspension the night TK was diagnosed just before the Chattanooga game. Hard to forget she had sat out the Virginia Tech game a few days earlier, costing us that game.

Also, the only acting out I remember after a game was skipping the handshake line in one of the games in the Bahamas, also way before TK went out.

The rest sounds like alot of speculation.

But TK's issues were affecting team performance before she went out. People just didn't understand that yet.

 

[glv98]

The tendency to think about Ms. Darby when considering the freshman's playing time is because both are predominantly outside shooters and both appear to currently have similar athletic deficits. I agree with you that Tess Darby should not be the only focus to find Ms. Pissott time. But I do think some of her minutes should have been going to Justine for many games. That is not "doing" something to Ms. Darby. It is a competitive situation and, with all due respect, Pissott would reasonably seem to have a much higher ceiling as a player. Maybe I'm wrong. No desire to offend Darby. She gives her all for Tennessee every game.

Not you, but others get so passionate in their narrative they begin to deride the player they believe is undeservedly getting JP's mins. It's all just coaching decision, one I happen to agree with. Legit question around why JP hasn't been better developed so far, but IMO she simply will not help us now. Others differ.

 

[lvocd]

Ohhh, I think I understand the confusion now, glv98. You were thinking that I meant the fact that TK's season ended is what led to the suspension. No, I mean that everything that had gone wrong that had scared the sh t out of RJ into thinking and then lashing out over having latched on to a bunch of losers who weren't trying hard enough, expecting her to do everything, and who were going to make her miss out on the Tourney again, is what led to the suspension.

And yes, I am largely speculating, but not without a great deal of thought, observation, and a tad of input from someone close to the program.

 

[Majors]

Because so many of her players have such serious limitations, yes the coach has to focus on them alot. Kellie refers to it as "putting them in a position where they can succeed." In other words, compensating for their weaknessess. I'm sure every coach wants to focus on the positives, but too busy plugging the hole in the boat to have that luxuary. Part of what makes coaching hard.

Another thing that makes coaching hard. How much of today should I sacrifice for tomorrow. Also remember, Tess is here 2 more years so she's the future too.

I don’t disagree on the plugging the hole, but to me a Jr playing 20 mins a game isn’t compensating a weakness. If they can scheme Tess for 7 ppg they can scheme 10-15 mins for JP. Can’t coach size which she has and the ability to shoot from outside.

 

[Majors]

The tendency to think about Ms. Darby when considering the freshman's playing time is because both are predominantly outside shooters and both appear to currently have similar athletic deficits. I agree with you that Tess Darby should not be the only focus to find Ms. Pissott time. But I do think some of her minutes should have been going to Justine for many games. That is not "doing" something to Ms. Darby. It is a competitive situation and, with all due respect, Pissott would reasonably seem to have a much higher ceiling as a player. Maybe I'm wrong. No desire to offend Darby. She gives her all for Tennessee every game.

All things even, you play the younger one because of the ceiling. Both have weaknesses, nobody is saying any different. Tess this many years in the system is who she is…not much to tap into.

 

[glv98]

All things even, you play the younger one because of the ceiling. Both have weaknesses, nobody is saying any different. Tess this many years in the system is who she is…not much to tap into.

Agree to disagree. If the youngster with the higher future ceiling is not currently more effective than the one playing, and IMO and KJH's she is not, then you only play her anyway if you've thrown the towel in on the present to play for the future. It's a coaching decision when to do that, but it's a tough signal for the team.

Especially bc Cora just came out w an article saying the LVs still believe in this year. LOL wish I could, but if true, glad they're still hanging in.

 

[madtownvol]

I know coach said that, but it doesn't seem to me to be actually true. If it is true, her constant effort to mix and match strange lineups would have her over the edge by now. The only sure thing about her game time lineups is that, regardless of what is happening on the court, it is about to change, utilizing, of course, only a particular portion of the roster.

I will say one more thing about this topic and then shut the h#@l! up and see what happens for the rest of this season.

The dilemma is not that Kellie won't change line-ups. As you note, she rotated players a lot in the early season and still uses "unexpected" combinations even in this late point in the season. But it is always in the quest of finding players and combinations that fit her "system". Now if she had a great system that a strong record success, then such an approach would be understandable.

But Kellie is an old school coach, she is following the legacy of CPS and Vivian Stringer, which is defense first. I sometimes wonder if Tennessee's defense and rebounding mantra has led to a pernicious tendency to miss open shots because misses create chances to crash the boards]. Last season, the stars aligned for Kellie and team and they were doing well by playing high intensity defense. I think at their pinnacle they were near the top of every team defense metric but they could not sustain that and took some really bad losses as the conference games rolled on.

This season they are not a particularly good defensive team (and I think we can see that Key covered up a lot of weaknesses) and they are not a good offensive team. When watching the LVs play the LSU's, Stanfords, or Uconn's, (even when they are very much in the game), I am struck by the fact that it seems so much harder for us to score than the other team. Rickea or Jordan can only beat a double to make a tough shot so many times in a game.

 

[Majors]

Agree to disagree. If the youngster with the higher future ceiling is not currently more effective than the one playing, and IMO and KJH's she is not, then you only play her anyway if you've thrown the towel in on the present to play for the future. It's a coaching decision when to do that, but it's a tough signal for the team.

Especially bc Cora just came out w an article saying the LVs still believe in this year. LOL wish I could, but if true, glad they're still hanging in.

Does Tess play warrant 20 mins a game? If she was 10+ points a game were not having this discussion.

Nobody is saying throw in the towel, but if you keep doing the same thing and getting the same results you’re doing it without saying it.

 

[Rixxx]

I can't believe Justine is coached to stand in the corner waiting for a pass when she gets into a game. A previous poster mentioned that Tess does a lot of little things. Why isn't Justine coached to do the little things?
If I sub for a point guard, I would want the sub to perform point guard duties, including shooting, passing, and rebounding. Is JP at the three point line so she doesn't get hurt? To me the coaching of JP is a mystery or a non-coaching issue. JMO

 

[Darth_Vol]

I fully believe if Tamari were completely healthy our season would be at a much different place today. Key had become one of the more dominant defensive stoppers in the country by season's end LAST year, so there's no reason to believe she wouldn't have, in her senior season, absolutely crushed it this season. Having her, Jackson, Horston, Hollingshead/Franklin and Tess all year? Come on. We have to know Kellie would be looking a lot better these days.

So who knew all Kellie needs to be successful is for everyone on the roster to remain completely healthy for the entire season? Better sign her to another extension.

I wish Kellie would get a good psychologist to help her overcome that so maybe she could save her career. Seriously.

Unfortunately "mediocre coaching" isn't a diagnosis you will find in the DSM-5...

 

[Coach Jumper]

This is the one thing about Kellie I cannot get past. It was obvious she struggles with change, but when she got frustrated enough during that interview to actually say the words "I don't like change," I was kinda gutted. I was gutted because I suspect those four spoken words will hurt her going forward.

I've known people like that, and those I've known were organized beyond belief and highly intelligent, hard-working people. But their aversion to change made them stubbornly ignore some problems because facing them meant change might be expected.

I wish Kellie would get a good psychologist to help her overcome that so maybe she could save her career. Seriously.

My advice to her,, in that role,, would be to figure a way to change public perception from that comment,, by immediately changing something newsworthy,,to show you might have uttered it but you don't live it

How'd I do?
I can be there tomorrow

 

[lvocd]

My advice to her,, in that role,, would be to figure a way to change public perception from that comment,, by immediately changing something newsworthy,,to show you might have uttered it but you don't live it

How'd I do?
I can be there tomorrow

That would be excellent advice if she'd take it.

But I think most of us who saw that interview were somewhat surprised by how emphatic she was about it. It was possibly the first time I ever knew her to get snippy with a reporter, so it would take some doing for her to convince people she doesn't live it.

Someone should remind her of #11 of Pat Summitt's Definite Dozen:

"CHANGE IS A MUST
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
Change equals self-improvement. Push yourself to places you haven't been before.
Take risks. You can't steal second base with your foot on first."

 

[Coach Jumper]

That would be excellent advice if she'd take it.

But I think most of us who saw that interview were somewhat surprised by how emphatic she was about it. It was possibly the first time I ever knew her to get snippy with a reporter, so it would take some doing for her to convince people she doesn't live it.

Someone should remind her of #11 of Pat Summitt's Definite Dozen:

"CHANGE IS A MUST
It's what you learn after you know it all that counts.
Change equals self-improvement. Push yourself to places you haven't been before.
Take risks. You can't steal second base with your foot on first."

you just did

 

[Darth_Vol]

She made Maxpreps all America team as a freshman...that's a good start for class of 2025 but next year Harper and that staff better get some college ready transfers in that are athletic and can run the floor and then some BIGS that can do the same...I still think next year will determine how it all shakes out up there..What do ya'll think?

I think we'll have to see if the next coach can hold onto her...