War in Ukraine

#21,677
#21,677
Rasputin_Vol said:
There were two incidents.

In 2014, Russia came in to secure their warm water port in Crimea as the US coup was taking place. In the resulting fallout, the US was able to successfully install their puppet Yatsenyiuk and the Donbas was ready to split away from the madness.

In this go around a month ago, after 8 years of attacks from the Kiev regime and failed attempts at getting the Kiev regime to follow the Minsk I ceasefire agreements, Russia came in at the moment that Kiev was planning on staging one more attack on the Donbas region with up to 60k of their best forces.
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I'm aware of prior events and your opinion of them.

Is that a yes or no to the question:
"To be clear, you're saying the May 2014 referendum legitimizes the invasion because the people of Donbas wanted independence?" that you've compared to the Confederate secession - ?
 
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#21,678
#21,678
WBO said:
You do know that Israel has objected to sanctions against Russian and refuses to criticize Russia at all.

There's some allies for you.

Remember June 8, 1967, 34 dead Americans. They're our allies when they want to be.
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Israel is also a small country with limited resources and a lot closer to the action, and they are still surrounded by card carrying nut cases. If Israel happened to be in this hemisphere, isolated from the lunacy, they'd likely respond a lot differently.
 
#21,679
#21,679
DonjoVol said:
They aren't showing the full side of the story. Many of us know this. I suggest researching some independent journalists in this matter. I've recommended names and videos to watch. That's all I can do at this point.
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If ever there was good reason to question everything you are hearing…it’s when the politicians, media, and big tech line up in force on the same side of an issue.
 
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#21,680
#21,680
NCFisher said:
To be clear, you're saying the May 2014 referendum legitimizes the invasion because the people of Donbas wanted independence?
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This is even breaking news to me, but apparently there was a referendum an Mariupol, also. Look at what they are talking about at 16:36 mark. So are these women lying?

 
#21,681
#21,681
AM64 said:
Israel is also a small country with limited resources and a lot closer to the action, and they are still surrounded by card carrying nut cases. If Israel happened to be in this hemisphere, isolated from the lunacy, they'd likely respond a lot differently.
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Wait... what are you saying here? Read at this one more time.

Remember June 8, 1967, 34 dead Americans. They're our allies when they want to be.
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#21,683
#21,683
norrislakevol said:
Quick question here: If Taiwan were to be invaded by China do you think almost the entire world would denounce it and aide Taiwan in the same means that a lot of nations have aided Ukraine? Not flaming or taking sides, just curious of everyone's thoughts.
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I'd hope that anybody would be as quick to defend Taiwan as they would Ukraine. Just on general principle one country invading another isn't OK. Secondly Taiwan produces a lot of goods - especially electronics that much of the world uses. Losing Taiwan and that output would likely make the chip shortage look like just a ripple in the force. If China took Taiwan intact and supplied what Taiwan currently now exports, it would make the US even more reliant on China.
 
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#21,684
#21,684
AM64 said:
I'd hope that anybody would be as quick to defend Taiwan as they would Ukraine. Just on general principle one country invading another isn't OK. Secondly Taiwan produces a lot of goods - especially electronics that much of the world uses. Losing Taiwan and that output would likely make the chip shortage look like just a ripple in the force. If China took Taiwan intact and supplied what Taiwan currently now exports, it would make the US even more reliant on China.
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Well, its our own fault. So why should we now risk war with China just because we were foolish?
 
#21,685
#21,685
Rasputin_Vol said:
Wait... what are you saying here? Read at this one more time.
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Blue on blue never happens? Everything is always black and white? Nobody has ever flown a false flag on a ship? It's been a long time since I read about that attack and about the status of Israel at the time with regards to the neighbors; I don't recall all the details. Remember when one of our Navy ships shot down an Iranian airliner by mistake - a ship supposedly with all the bells and whistles, and still got it wrong? However, it seems like both happened when tensions in the regions were running high.
 
#21,687
#21,687
Rasputin_Vol said:
This is even breaking news to me, but apparently there was a referendum an Mariupol, also. Look at what they are talking about at 16:36 mark. So are these women lying?

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Are you incapable of answering a simple question?

For a third time: To be clear, you're saying the May 2014 referendum legitimizes the invasion because the people of Donbas wanted independence?
 
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#21,688
#21,688
NCFisher said:
Are you incapable of answering a simple question?

For a third time: To be clear, you're saying the May 2014 referendum legitimizes the invasion because the people of Donbas wanted independence?
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Gotdammit... I have answered this over and over again. The referendums were the reaction to the 2014 US lead coup... What legitimizes the invasions are the 2014 US lead coup and the 8 years of shelling in the Donbas. Why do you ignore the very clear answers I have given you?
 
#21,689
#21,689
NCFisher said:
Are you incapable of answering a simple question?

For a third time: To be clear, you're saying the May 2014 referendum legitimizes the invasion because the people of Donbas wanted independence?
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I'll reiterate my point that the majority of VN posters (probably including the pro-russia types) don't think our elections are legitimate, but apparently Russian separatists in Ukraine are conducting perfectly legit referendums.
 
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#21,690
#21,690
NCFisher said:
Are you incapable of answering a simple question?

For a third time: To be clear, you're saying the May 2014 referendum legitimizes the invasion because the people of Donbas wanted independence?
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Also, your original question:
Why don't you guys @Rasputin_Vol @volgr @DonjoVol produce evidence that Donbas residents wanted to secede from Ukraine?
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But then suddenly, you make an attempt to either change the question/move the goalposts or you are just trying to create a strawman by saying putting words in peoples' mouths that were not said.
 
#21,691
#21,691
clarksvol00 said:
I'll reiterate my point that the majority of VN posters (probably including the pro-russia types) don't think our elections are legitimate, but apparently Russian separatists in Ukraine are conducting perfectly legit referendums.
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If they are illegitimate, there would have been complaints in Crimea and Donbas.
 
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#21,692
#21,692
Rasputin_Vol said:
Can you really blame the Indians? They are looking at all of this madness and are probably thinking, "We could be next."

In addition, the European colonialism does play a factor in this. The world is going to take advantage of this situation and squeeze everything they can out of it. And looks like The West, outside of knocking over the chessboard with a nuclear war, can't do much about it.

The West has no leverage.
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I don't fault the Indians for taking a good deal offered by Russia. I do fault them for not being astute enough to see that Russia may not continue to be the best source for India's military hardware or that their enemy China knows the good and bad about the Russian hardware since China has a bit of it, too. As far as oil goes, that's probably like passing one gas station because one down the road has better prices today.

As to the after effects of colonialism, I'd imagine India (as well as many other countries around the world) still carry grudges toward Europe - and probably by extension to the US because we are aligned with Europe. Seems like it would make more sense to work on closer ties with India than a bunch of the losers we are supporting around the world.

I do agree with you our about wars in the ME sandbox. If you don't want terrorism in this country, then protect our borders don't go starting protracted wars elsewhere because they have terrorist training camps.
 
#21,694
#21,694
AM64 said:
I do agree with you our about wars in the ME sandbox. If you don't want terrorism in this country, then protect our borders don't go starting protracted wars elsewhere because they have terrorist training camps.
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Or even better, don't arm groups that you may end up fighting 10 or 20 years later (Mujahedeen, ISIS). Or even better than that, don't get involved in regional conflicts at all.
 
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#21,695
#21,695
Rasputin_Vol said:
Gotdammit... I have answered this over and over again. The referendums were the reaction to the 2014 US lead coup... What legitimizes the invasions are the 2014 US lead coup and the 8 years of shelling in the Donbas. Why do you ignore the very clear answers I have given you?
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No, they weren't. The referendums were illegitimate constructs of the separatist militants in the regions they controlled, not the greater regions within Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts controlled by the legitimate Ukrainian government.

Here's your "breaking news", snort!
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Pravda reported:
Almost 70% of residents of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts voted for joining Dnipropetrovsk oblast.

These are the results of counting 99% of the ballot after the vote held on Sunday, according to 056.ua.

The remaining one percent, which is about 18 thousand ballots, was lost in the Donetsk region and law enforcement officers are looking for them.

According to Mykhailo Lysenko, a member of the CEC of territorial communities, 2,883,000 people in Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts turned out for the referendum.

69.1% (1,968,619 people) voted for the reunification of the territorial communities of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts to Dnipropetrovsk oblast, 27.2% of the population (774,912 people) voted against accession and against the Donetsk People's Republic, and 3 voted for the DNR. 7% (105,411 people).

Voting took place at polling stations in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions. There were a total of 42 stationary polling stations and 137 mobile ones. All the work of the polling stations was recorded on video. Майже 2 мільйони донеччан і луганчан хочуть у Дніпропетровськ
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Eight years in and you don't know about the concurrent referendums - also non-binding - held on May 11, 2014 in Ukrainian controlled Donbas regions of the two oblasts? That of 2.9 million voters just 105,411 voted to not be Ukrainian? How can you conduct your research if not renewing your 2014 Pravda subscription, comrade?

Your Confederacy analogies are absurd, as are your claims that Donbas residents wanted to no longer be Ukrainian.
No need for you to answer the question posed multiple time, I've done it for you.
 
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#21,696
#21,696
NCFisher said:
No, they weren't. The referendums were illegitimate constructs of the separatist militants in the regions they controlled, not the greater regions within Luhansk and Donetsk oblasts controlled by the legitimate Ukrainian government.

Here's your "breaking news", snort!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pravda reported:
Almost 70% of residents of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts voted for joining Dnipropetrovsk oblast.

These are the results of counting 99% of the ballot after the vote held on Sunday, according to 056.ua.

The remaining one percent, which is about 18 thousand ballots, was lost in the Donetsk region and law enforcement officers are looking for them.

According to Mykhailo Lysenko, a member of the CEC of territorial communities, 2,883,000 people in Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts turned out for the referendum.

69.1% (1,968,619 people) voted for the reunification of the territorial communities of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts to Dnipropetrovsk oblast, 27.2% of the population (774,912 people) voted against accession and against the Donetsk People's Republic, and 3 voted for the DNR. 7% (105,411 people).

Voting took place at polling stations in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions. There were a total of 42 stationary polling stations and 137 mobile ones. All the work of the polling stations was recorded on video. Майже 2 мільйони донеччан і луганчан хочуть у Дніпропетровськ
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Eight years in and you don't know about the concurrent referendums - also non-binding - held on May 11, 2014 in Ukrainian controlled Donbas regions of the two oblasts? That of 2.9 million voters just 105,411 voted to not be Ukrainian? How can you conduct your research if not renewing your 2014 Pravda subscription, comrade?

Your Confederacy analogies are absurd, as are your claims that Donbas residents wanted to no longer be Ukrainian.
No need for you to answer the question posed multiple time, I've done it for you.
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There wouldn't have been any referendums had it not been for the 2014 US lead coup. Stop it. Get some help. This is basic 8 year old subject matter.
 
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