Ayn Rand and Christianity - how do you make them fit together?

[AshG]

I've been digging deeper into the works of Ayn Rand in an attempt to understand some of the viewpoints here. The more I try to wrap my head around Randian Objectivism, the more confused I become.

How do those of you who hold Rand in such high esteem deal with the cognitive and spiritual dissonances created by such conflicting ideologies?

And how many of you don't even realize that you operate in Rand's ideology?

Randian Objectivism:

• What is, is. No manner of belief or philosophical stance can make something what it is not.
• There is a single, secular truth to all things.
• There is no transcendent future, only now
• Preservation and advancement of self is the most moral path through life
• To be beholden to no one for anything is the chief end to living
• What's yours is yours; anyone who wants any of it for any reason is a thief

Christianity

• There are deeper meanings and causal relationships in almost every situation; seek, and you shall find
• The now is but an infinitesimally short moment in eternity for all humanity
• God is at the center of all things, and you come to Him through Christ
• Nothing actually belongs to you, you are merely the steward for a short moment. Your reward is added to by giving it away and waits for you in eternity
• Give Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's. If a man asks for your coat, etc.

 

[Vol8188]

It’s only a contradiction if you believe I read Ayn Rand for her views on god.

 

[AshG]

It’s only a contradiction if you believe I read Ayn Rand for her views on god.

Her economic views are completely antithetical to the Christian ethos.

 

[volinbham]

I don't think being Libertarian means the same thing as following Objectivism

I honestly don't know which if any posters are adherents of Objectivism

 

[Vol8188]

You also seem to be completely misunderstanding Rand if you believe she sees “accumulation of wealth” as the primary goal in life.

In The Fountainhead her main character intentionally makes decisions throughout the book that cost him money, because he would rather remain true to himself.

In Atlas Shrugged the main characters leave all their worldly possessions behind to start their own society.

Instead of reading opinions on Rand, you should start with her actual works. Specifically those two

 

[Vol8188]

Her economic views are completely antithetical to the Christian ethos.

Which economic views of hers?

 

[AshG]

I don't think being Libertarian means the same thing as following Objectivism

I honestly don't know which if any posters are adherents of Objectivism

There are plenty, even if they don't know it. Just look for the times people complain that that's no reason to look further into a situation (voting, medical access, etc) because the problem is obvious and has no nuance.

 

[AshG]

Which economic views of hers?

Have you read the scathing letter she sent her niece when she asked for help with a prom dress?

Also, her idea that taxation is theft.

 

[Vol8188]

Randian Objectivism:
Your personal truth is all there is

You see the contradiction of terms here right?

You believe “objectivism” teaches the concept of “personal truth”

 

[SamRebel35]

I've been digging deeper into the works of Ayn Rand in an attempt to understand some of the viewpoints here. The more I try to wrap my head around Randian Objectivism, the more confused I become.

How do those of you who hold Rand in such high esteem deal with the cognitive and spiritual dissonances created by such conflicting ideologies?

And how many of you don't even realize that you operate in Rand's ideology?

Randian Objectivism:

• What you see is all there is, no reason to look deeper or further
• There is no transcendent future, only now
• You are the center of your universe
• Accumulation of wealth through work is the primary goal of life
• What's yours is yours; anyone who wants any of it for any reason is a thief

Christianity

• There are deeper meanings and causal relationships in almost every situation; seek, and you shall find
• The now is but an infinitesimally short moment in eternity for all humanity
• God is at the center of all things, and you come to Him through Christ
• Nothing actually belongs to you, you are merely the steward for a short moment. Your reward is added to by giving it away and waits for you in eternity
• Give Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's. If a man asks for your coat, etc.

First, you don't have to agree with every single aspect of someone's worldview to acknowledge what they got right.

Second, Your interpretation of Rand is a caracateur of Objectivism. I'll help.

* compelled altruism is NOT altruism
* compelled sacrifice is not moral
* rational self interest (not the same as selfishness) is moral
* weakness is not virtue
* a man's purpose is to contribute

She is not a Christian, but there is nothing about Objectivism at odds with the main tenants of Christianity.

 

[Vol8188]

Have you read the scathing letter she sent her niece when she asked for help with a prom dress?

Also, her idea that taxation is theft.

The letter about the importance of repaying debt? You find that “incompatible” with Christianity?

 

[AshG]

First, you don't have to agree with every single aspect of someone's worldview to acknowledge what they got right.

Second, Your interpretation of Rand is a caracateur of Objectivism. I'll help.

* compelled altruism is NOT altruism
* compelled sacrifice is not moral
* rational self interest (not the same as selfishness) is moral
* weakness is not virtue
* a man's purpose is to contribute

She is not a Christian, but there is nothing about Objectivism at odds with the main tenants of Christianity.

To address your points:
Christians are compelled by Christ to be altruistic.
Christians are compelled by Christ to sacrifice in our daily lives
The Beatitudes outline the blessed nature of the weak
The chief purpose of man is to glorify God

I see quite a bit of conflict here.[/QUOTE]

 

[Vol8188]

Have you actually been looking into her philosophy or just misrepresentations of her philosophy?

No one can honestly read her and proclaim she sees the goal of life to be the accumulation of wealth.

Nor can anyone read her work and proclaim she believes in “personal truth”.

Or that there’s no reason to investigate things further. She literally proclaims it’s man’s ability to think and reason that sets him apart, and it’s the basis of her philosophy.

 

[SamRebel35]

Have you actually been looking into her philosophy or just misrepresentations of her philosophy?

No one can honestly read her and proclaim she sees the goal of life to be the accumulation of wealth.

Nor can anyone read her work and proclaim she believes in “personal truth”.

Or that there’s no reason to investigate things further. She literally proclaims it’s man’s ability to think and reason that sets him apart, and it’s the basis of her philosophy.

Probably saw a post on Reddit then copy and pasted it here.

 

[AshG]

The letter about the importance of repaying debt? You find that “incompatible” with Christianity?

"I want you to understand right now that I will not accept any excuse—except a serious illness. If you become ill, then I will give you an extension of time—but for no other reason. If, when the debt becomes due, you tell me that you can’t pay me because you needed a new pair of shoes or a new coat or you gave the money to somebody in the family who needed it more than I do—then I will consider you as an embezzler. No, I won’t send a policeman after you, but I will write you off as a rotten person and I will never speak or write to you again."

I can't, in good conscience, imitate that advice in whole or in part.

 

[AshG]

Probably saw a post on Reddit then copy and pasted it here.

Nope.

 

[SamRebel35]

To address your points:
Christians are compelled by Christ to be altruistic.
Christians are compelled by Christ to sacrifice in our daily lives
The Beatitudes outline the blessed nature of the weak
The chief purpose of man is to glorify God

I see quite a bit of conflict here.

[/QUOTE]

Christians have free will. Christ does not force people to sacrifice and doesn't force people to be altruistic. And if he did, the acts wouldn't be moral or virtuous. They would just be byproducts of forcing someone to do something.

 

[Vol8188]

"I want you to understand right now that I will not accept any excuse—except a serious illness. If you become ill, then I will give you an extension of time—but for no other reason. If, when the debt becomes due, you tell me that you can’t pay me because you needed a new pair of shoes or a new coat or you gave the money to somebody in the family who needed it more than I do—then I will consider you as an embezzler. No, I won’t send a policeman after you, but I will write you off as a rotten person and I will never speak or write to you again."

I can't, in good conscience, imitate that advice in whole or in part.

That's great advice. If someone doesn't repay you money they said they would, do you not lose respect for that person? She's teaching this girl a valuable lesson. If I owe another person money, it eats at my soul. And surely we've all had issues were family members claimed they would repay you and never did. I've had to have many uncomfortable conversations with my niece and nephew about this very topic because they would claim they would repay me and then never mention it again.

Idk how anyone can pretend to be good/righteous/noble/decent/etc and also not understand this.

 

[SamRebel35]

"I want you to understand right now that I will not accept any excuse—except a serious illness. If you become ill, then I will give you an extension of time—but for no other reason. If, when the debt becomes due, you tell me that you can’t pay me because you needed a new pair of shoes or a new coat or you gave the money to somebody in the family who needed it more than I do—then I will consider you as an embezzler. No, I won’t send a policeman after you, but I will write you off as a rotten person and I will never speak or write to you again."

I can't, in good conscience, imitate that advice in whole or in part.

Other than being painfully blount with a family member, where is the moral issue here?

 

[Vol8188]

Have you actually been looking into her philosophy or just misrepresentations of her philosophy?

No one can honestly read her and proclaim she sees the goal of life to be the accumulation of wealth.

Nor can anyone read her work and proclaim she believes in “personal truth”.

Or that there’s no reason to investigate things further. She literally proclaims it’s man’s ability to think and reason that sets him apart, and it’s the basis of her philosophy.

@AshG you really need to address these things if you want anyone to take you seriously on this topic. It seems you're intentionally misrepresenting Rand.

 

[Vol8188]

Other than being painfully blount with a family member, where is the moral issue here?

It may have saved me some relationships with family members if I had been more direct. Sadly, my way was to never mention the money again and simply distance myself from them because I had lost respect for them.

 

[allvol123]

"I want you to understand right now that I will not accept any excuse—except a serious illness. If you become ill, then I will give you an extension of time—but for no other reason. If, when the debt becomes due, you tell me that you can’t pay me because you needed a new pair of shoes or a new coat or you gave the money to somebody in the family who needed it more than I do—then I will consider you as an embezzler. No, I won’t send a policeman after you, but I will write you off as a rotten person and I will never speak or write to you again."

I can't, in good conscience, imitate that advice in whole or in part.

Sound advice.

 

[Vol8188]

One of my last conversations with my niece was her requesting about 6,000 to help her pay off some credit card debt:

Come to me with a plan. What you intend to do to make money and how you intend to pay me back. Then, I'll send you the money.

Edit: She dropped the topic and hasn't brought it back it up lately. But if she or anyone else ever accepts my financial help and then does not repay it, they would 100% lose my respect and my willingness to help them in the future. IDK what's problematic about any of that

 

[85SugarVol]

I've been digging deeper into the works of Ayn Rand in an attempt to understand some of the viewpoints here. The more I try to wrap my head around Randian Objectivism, the more confused I become.

How do those of you who hold Rand in such high esteem deal with the cognitive and spiritual dissonances created by such conflicting ideologies?

And how many of you don't even realize that you operate in Rand's ideology?

Randian Objectivism:

• What you see is all there is, no reason to look deeper or further
• Your personal truth is all there is
• There is no transcendent future, only now
• You are the center of your universe
• Accumulation of wealth through work is the primary goal of life
• What's yours is yours; anyone who wants any of it for any reason is a thief

Christianity

• There are deeper meanings and causal relationships in almost every situation; seek, and you shall find
• The now is but an infinitesimally short moment in eternity for all humanity
• God is at the center of all things, and you come to Him through Christ
• Nothing actually belongs to you, you are merely the steward for a short moment. Your reward is added to by giving it away and waits for you in eternity
• Give Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's. If a man asks for your coat, etc.

You just intentionally poked one of the posters you publicly have stated you don’t like to engage with? Interesting strategy, Ash.

 

[Vol8188]

You just intentionally poked one of the posters you publicly have stated you don’t like to engage with? Interesting strategy, Ash.

I'm just happy he's been at least looking into (reading would be an overstatement) Rand and her philosophy. Even if it sounds like he's getting The Young Turk's version of Rand's ideology.