Florida recruiting - yikes

#126
#126
GAVol said:
So sad. From what I understand, he was having a procedure on his shoulder to clean some things up and had an adverse reaction to anesthesia.
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That's a serious issue if you don't know you're allergic to anything. My wife's entire family is genetically allergic to one particular anesthetic. If any have to go under for any type of treatment , they have to make sure they don't get this one anesthetic, and it's a fairly commonly used one. They won't wake up from it.

It's sad they didn't know about this, but if he's never had procedures before that required this, how would they know.
 
#128
#128
sjt18 said:
He may quit. If he doesn't, history says that NO ONE is that perfect.

I differ in that I don't think anyone will consistently beat him by outrecruiting him until someone beats him by outcoaching him.
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History also didn't have a coach win 6 championships in 12 years. Saban is an outlier
 
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#129
#129
Mtnvol80 said:
History also didn't have a coach win 6 championships in 12 years. Saban is an outlier
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He is but maybe not by the span you think. Remember that guys like Tom Osborne, John McKay, Bear Bryant, etc coached in an era when 1 loss teams seldom won the NC and 2 loss teams never did. Saban may well be the GOAT but it isn't quite an apples to apples comparison when some of the past greats didn't get their chance to win it on the field. Trusting sports writers with the NC was NEVER good... almost on par with the Heisman with regard to politics playing in.

And still... every great reaches the end. Someone will catch him or else he will retire. He's 71. The likelihood increases with each passing year.
 
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#130
#130
sjt18 said:
He is but maybe not by the span you think. Remember that guys like Tom Osborne, John McKay, Bear Bryant, etc coached in an era when 1 loss teams seldom won the NC and 2 loss teams never did. Saban may well be the GOAT but it isn't quite an apples to apples comparison when some of the past greats didn't get their chance to win it on the field. Trusting sports writers with the NC was NEVER good... almost on par with the Heisman with regard to politics playing in.

And still... every great reaches the end. Someone will catch him or else he will retire. He's 71. The likelihood increases with each passing year.
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They also got to benefit from having split national titles, not having to play conference titles, not having to play a semi final game, and didn’t have to deal with players leaving early.

Saban is the greatest college football coach ever. There is no debate.
 
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#133
#133
zjcvols said:
They also got to benefit from having split national titles, not having to play conference titles, not having to play a semi final game, and didn’t have to deal with players leaving early.

Saban is the greatest college football coach ever. There is no debate.
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Not really into GOAT titles very often. He is the most productive coach of all time. He for sure has done MORE with MORE. He is taking over that logical position from whom, and where did they coach? How many coaches have won the NC there? He has done what it has taken to get players there to win games, That is the objective, I get it. We used to kick around greatness with coaches by saying "he could beat yours with his or he could beat his with yours." I don't think if he and CJH swithed sidelines that UT would have beaten Bama this year. Not many wins on his resume anyone could claim he was undermanned and won. I do respect what he has done and he is in A great status.

Had he done this down the road a bit in Starkville it would be a better argument. I can buy into entering names into lofty groups of players and coaches but singling out to the THE status is a reach for me. The only person in all of history that I unquestionably buy into such a status has had a birthday today.
 
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#134
#134
GUNTERSVOL said:
Not really into GOAT titles very often. He is the most productive coach of all time. He for sure has done MORE with MORE. He is taking over that logical position from whom, and where did they coach? How many coaches have won the NC there? He has done what it has taken to get players there to win games, That is the objective, I get it. We used to kick around greatness with coaches by saying "he could beat yours with his or he could beat his with yours." I don't think if he and CJH swithed sidelines that UT would have beaten Bama this year. Not many wins on his resume anyone could claim he was undermanned and won. I do respect what he has done and he is in A great status.

Had he done this down the road a bit in Starkville it would be a better argument. I can buy into entering names into lofty groups of players and coaches but singling out to the THE status is a reach for me. The only person in all of history that I unquestionably buy into such a status has had a birthday today.
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Except in college football half your job is also recruiting so he’s the one setting up the team anyways, so it’s a silly argument.
 
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#135
#135
zjcvols said:
They also got to benefit from having split national titles, not having to play conference titles, not having to play a semi final game, and didn’t have to deal with players leaving early.

Saban is the greatest college football coach ever. There is no debate.
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Plus they had the added benefit of signing a zillion players. It's much harder to win a title now than then.
 
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#136
#136
CR-vol said:
I've noticed a trend here lately on VN there's lots of Bitter Vol Syndrome but I agree 110%. F the rest of the SEC and go Vols!
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I have never bought into that whole "the rest of the SEC doing well makes us look good" crap. It makes THEM look good. I hope they ALL lose.
 
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#137
#137
zjcvols said:
They also got to benefit from having split national titles, not having to play conference titles, not having to play a semi final game, and didn’t have to deal with players leaving early.

Saban is the greatest college football coach ever. There is no debate.
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I'll go further that the reason there isn't a debate is because it isn't close.

Your point about split titles is spot on. Barry Switzer could take his team to the Orange Bowl and Bear Bryant could take his to the Sugar and both walk away with a title. Right now, Michigan would be playing Utah in the Rose Bowl. Alabama would probably be playing Notre Dame in the Sugar. Georgia and Baylor would hook up in the Cotton. And Cincinnati would be stuck finding a dance partner. So, which is easier, having to play two games to win a title or one game against a weaker (based on ranking) opponent? Michigan's chances of winning a national title may be higher playing Utah in the Rose Bowl and hoping someone beats Alabama than beating Georgia and Alabama back to back.

Another thing is the whole of college football is a lot more competitive than in years past. In particular, the conference Saban is coaching in is the strongest, most competitive in the history of college football at any given time. Maybe before integration, the Big 10 was this level of strong, but I doubt it. While Saban has been at Alabama, Florida, LSU, and Auburn have won national titles. LSU actually won multiple national titles (2007 and 2019) and played for a third (2011). Auburn played for an additional one (2013) in addition to winning theirs (2010). And 2009 Florida was a defending national champion that was 12-0 when Alabama had to play them in the SEC title game. That's within his own league. And, oh yeah, Georgia played for a national title in 2017 and may be playing for another having qualified for the playoff in 2021. He is 115-17 against this conference while at Alabama. 111-13 if you remove year 1.

It's absolutely insane
 
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#138
#138
zjcvols said:
They also got to benefit from having split national titles, not having to play conference titles, not having to play a semi final game, and didn’t have to deal with players leaving early.

Saban is the greatest college football coach ever. There is no debate.
Click to expand...

I agree with the 1st paragraph.

2nd paragraph, not so much. It's not that I'd argue against it; just that I think it's impossible to compare different eras. How do you compare coaches like General Neyland, Knute Rockne, Bear Bryant, Bud Wilkinson, or Tom Osborne to Nick Saban? It's impossible. They coached in a completely different eras without nationalized recruiting, national TV broadcasts, recruiting services, social media, readily available game footage of every high school prospect, etc, etc, etc.

If you put Saban back into 1930 or 1950 or 1975, he may not be nearly as good. If you put Knute Rockne into 2021, he might not be as good. It's just impossible to compare because the attributes that made "the greatest coach" then are completely different than today.

Even someone like Bill Snyder is impossible to compare to Saban. Bill Snyder probably doesn't win 6 national championships in 12 years at Alabama, but I'm also willing to bet you that Nick Saban couldn't have done anything close to 108-29-1 at Kansas State from 1993 to 2003. Does that make Snyder the better coach or Saban?

There are too many apples to oranges comparisons in college football coaching. What we can say is that Saban is the greatest recruiter of all-time and he's the greatest coach of this era. But I'm not convinced that you put him back in some previous time and a different place in college football history, that he's anywhere nearly as dominant. Hell, a lot of the flaws of his coaching were exposed in the NFL, so we know he's far from invincible. Loading up on an ungodly amount of 5-star athletes makes up for a lot of other flaws; that wouldn't have been possible in the college football world of 1950 or 1975.
 
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#139
#139
DiderotsGhost said:
I agree with the 1st paragraph.

2nd paragraph, not so much. It's not that I'd argue against it; just that I think it's impossible to compare different eras. How do you compare coaches like General Neyland, Knute Rockne, Bear Bryant, Bud Wilkinson, or Tom Osborne to Nick Saban? It's impossible. They coached in a completely different eras without nationalized recruiting, national TV broadcasts, recruiting services, social media, readily available game footage of every high school prospect, etc, etc, etc.

If you put Saban back into 1930 or 1950 or 1975, he may not be nearly as good. If you put Knute Rockne into 2021, he might not be as good. It's just impossible to compare because the attributes that made "the greatest coach" then are completely different than today.

Even someone like Bill Snyder is impossible to compare to Saban. Bill Snyder probably doesn't win 6 national championships in 12 years at Alabama, but I'm also willing to bet you that Nick Saban couldn't have done anything close to 108-29-1 at Kansas State from 1993 to 2003. Does that make Snyder the better coach or Saban?

There are too many apples to oranges comparisons in college football coaching. What we can say is that Saban is the greatest recruiter of all-time and he's the greatest coach of this era. But I'm not convinced that you put him back in some previous time and a different place in college football history, that he's anywhere nearly as dominant. Hell, a lot of the flaws of his coaching were exposed in the NFL, so we know he's far from invincible. Loading up on an ungodly amount of 5-star athletes makes up for a lot of other flaws; that wouldn't have been possible in the college football world of 1950 or 1975.
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Respectfully disagree.

The game has evolved over time. It would take a minute and a half for Saban to learn the football of Rockne or Bryant's era because a lot of it is still used today.

Knute Rockne and General Neyland wouldn't know what the hell they were watching if they attended a game today. Literally no clue. Same is true for Bear Bryant.

Their schedules were also lighter. The SEC title game plus two playoff games alone are tougher than the entire schedules of what coaches like Rockne faced.
 
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#141
#141
DiderotsGhost said:
I agree with the 1st paragraph.

2nd paragraph, not so much. It's not that I'd argue against it; just that I think it's impossible to compare different eras. How do you compare coaches like General Neyland, Knute Rockne, Bear Bryant, Bud Wilkinson, or Tom Osborne to Nick Saban? It's impossible. They coached in a completely different eras without nationalized recruiting, national TV broadcasts, recruiting services, social media, readily available game footage of every high school prospect, etc, etc, etc.

If you put Saban back into 1930 or 1950 or 1975, he may not be nearly as good. If you put Knute Rockne into 2021, he might not be as good. It's just impossible to compare because the attributes that made "the greatest coach" then are completely different than today.

Even someone like Bill Snyder is impossible to compare to Saban. Bill Snyder probably doesn't win 6 national championships in 12 years at Alabama, but I'm also willing to bet you that Nick Saban couldn't have done anything close to 108-29-1 at Kansas State from 1993 to 2003. Does that make Snyder the better coach or Saban?

There are too many apples to oranges comparisons in college football coaching. What we can say is that Saban is the greatest recruiter of all-time and he's the greatest coach of this era. But I'm not convinced that you put him back in some previous time and a different place in college football history, that he's anywhere nearly as dominant. Hell, a lot of the flaws of his coaching were exposed in the NFL, so we know he's far from invincible. Loading up on an ungodly amount of 5-star athletes makes up for a lot of other flaws; that wouldn't have been possible in the college football world of 1950 or 1975.
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You are correct that the game is completely different today relative to 100 years ago. However, generally speaking, I think we can all agree that despite the differences the era Saban has coached in is more competitive than the era Knute Rockne coached in. Before integration and particularly in someone like Rockne's day, the game was extremely parochial. The lay of the land in CFB was akin to high school football. The sport was still relatively new in those days and there simply weren't all that many players and schools who were good at it. It does not mean that Rockne was not a good coach or doesn't deserve the reputation he has. He competed in the environment of his day and was incredibly successful. However, it was easier for a school to be dominant in those days.

Contrast this with the modern era; there are way more good players spread over multiple regions of the country. There are more good programs. There are scholarship limits. The huge TV contracts the conferences sign and distribute out to all their members are an equalizer. The sport's talent and money is more diffused. You aren't "supposed to" be able to pull off a 1930s-style level of domination of the sport anymore. Yet Saban has somehow won the national title 43% of the time over the last 14+ seasons. That is completely absurd. He's winning titles on a more frequent basis that even Rockne did, and that is if you include Rockne's unclaimed titles.

Maybe a hot take here, but Saban is the GOAT, and I don't even really think it is even debatable.
 
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#143
#143
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#144
#144
05_never_again said:
You are correct that the game is completely different today relative to 100 years ago. However, generally speaking, I think we can all agree that despite the differences the era Saban has coached in is more competitive than the era Knute Rockne coached in. Before integration and particularly in someone like Rockne's day, the game was extremely parochial. The lay of the land in CFB was akin to high school football. The sport was still relatively new in those days and there simply weren't all that many players and schools who were good at it. It does not mean that Rockne was not a good coach or doesn't deserve the reputation he has. He competed in the environment of his day and was incredibly successful. However, it was easier for a school to be dominant in those days.
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Yes and no.

Is there more parity today than in 1930 or 1950, etc? Yes.

But at the same time, top talent has never been concentrated quite like this before either. No coach in the 30s, 50s, or 70s is going to have 30 of the top 100 players on their roster. That was impossible back then. Talent was more regional. A school in Alabama couldn't go recruit California, Texas, south Florida, DC, and Philadelphia and pull the top players out of all of those markets.

So I don't agree. Sure, Saban is the GOAT in the modern era, but the idea that he could've done this back in the 50s or 70s is just hogwash. If Saban coaches at Bama in the 50s, he gets the best white players out of Alabama and maybe a few out of Mississippi and Georgia. He's not winning 6 out of 12 national titles.

It's easy to claim Saban is the greatest of all-time, but it's also easy to overlook just how huge of a talent disparity there has been between his teams and the rest of the top teams in CFB.

TL;DR: The gap between the #10 and #50 team is much less today than it was in 1930/50/70/etc. The gap between the #1 and the #7 team, however, is much greater than it was in 1930/50/70/etc. 40 years ago, the #1 team and the #7 team, on average, probably have similar talent. Not at all the case today. There is more overall parity, but there's also a bigger gap between the top couple of teams and the next tier than there ever has been before.
 
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#145
#145
DiderotsGhost said:
Yes and no.

Is there more parity today than in 1930 or 1950, etc? Yes.

But at the same time, top talent has never been concentrated quite like this before either. No coach in the 30s, 50s, or 70s is going to have 30 of the top 100 players on their roster. That was impossible back then. Talent was more regional. A school in Alabama couldn't go recruit California, Texas, south Florida, DC, and Philadelphia and pull the top players out of all of those markets.

So I don't agree. Sure, Saban is the GOAT in the modern era, but the idea that he could've done this back in the 50s or 70s is just hogwash. If Saban coaches at Bama in the 50s, he gets the best white players out of Alabama and maybe a few out of Mississippi and Georgia. He's not winning 6 out of 12 national titles.

It's easy to claim Saban is the greatest of all-time, but it's also easy to overlook just how huge of a talent disparity there has been between his teams and the rest of the top teams in CFB.

TL;DR: The gap between the #10 and #50 team is much less today than it was in 1930/50/70/etc. The gap between the #1 and the #7 team, however, is much greater than it was in 1930/50/70/etc. 40 years ago, the #1 team and the #7 team, on average, probably have similar talent. Not at all the case today. There is more overall parity, but there's also a bigger gap between the top couple of teams and the next tier than there ever has been before.
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I'd say the talent was even more concentrated in 1950 than it is today. The talent was super concentrated in the upper Midwest in those days - Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania. Almost all of the top programs were located in that part of the country. There was some in Texas and some in California, but not as much as today. Florida was a swamp where nobody lived. Population shifts have changed that - the talent is still concentrated in certain places but there are multiple places where it is concentrated. The SEC is dominant today for the same demographic reasons that Michigan, Ohio St, Notre Dame, Penn St, controlled the game in 1950.

The playing field is just leveled in so many ways that it wasn't 50 years ago. Vandy gets an allocation from the SECN just like Alabama does. Is there still a gigantic gap between Vandy and Alabama? Of course. But the money that gets thrown around today, even to marginal programs like Vandy, just didn't happen 50 years ago.
 
#150
#150
05_never_again said:
You are correct that the game is completely different today relative to 100 years ago. However, generally speaking, I think we can all agree that despite the differences the era Saban has coached in is more competitive than the era Knute Rockne coached in. Before integration and particularly in someone like Rockne's day, the game was extremely parochial. The lay of the land in CFB was akin to high school football. The sport was still relatively new in those days and there simply weren't all that many players and schools who were good at it. It does not mean that Rockne was not a good coach or doesn't deserve the reputation he has. He competed in the environment of his day and was incredibly successful. However, it was easier for a school to be dominant in those days.

Contrast this with the modern era; there are way more good players spread over multiple regions of the country. There are more good programs. There are scholarship limits. The huge TV contracts the conferences sign and distribute out to all their members are an equalizer. The sport's talent and money is more diffused. You aren't "supposed to" be able to pull off a 1930s-style level of domination of the sport anymore. Yet Saban has somehow won the national title 43% of the time over the last 14+ seasons. That is completely absurd. He's winning titles on a more frequent basis that even Rockne did, and that is if you include Rockne's unclaimed titles.

Maybe a hot take here, but Saban is the GOAT, and I don't even really think it is even debatable.
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I wonder how Saban would have faired if he was called into military service during his coaching prime? Also, has Saban ever had 17 straight shutouts and 71 consecutive shutout quarters? Also, has Saban ever had 5 undefeated seasons within a 6 year period? Who was undefeated against the great Bear Bryant? I’m having trouble recalling his name…someone help me out?
 
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