The Tennessee Takeover

#51
#51
That scenario is, to some extent, where we are with Rick Barnes. Texas grew ready to let him go because he could get them into the tournament but rarely got as far as Texas boosters thought Texas teams should go. Tennessee fans were delighted to get him--at that time, many expressed the view that we'd just like to have a coach that could get us into the tournament annually and make us competitive with the Kentucky's of the world. Now that we have reached that point, many now say that it isnt enough. With success, perspectives change.

As for Heupel, many will now say we'd love to have a coach get us to the point outlined by OP, but once we get there, many will clamor that it's not enough. Winning causes a change in perspective.
 
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#52
#52
sjt18 said:
Did you read the post I responded to or consider the context? "On average, we are an 7-8 win program with some big seasons sprinkled in, which is really good."

That is NOT "really good".

No. You don't "say" that's your goal... when you call it "really good" to "average that" you build in an excuse to accept it. Fulmer WITH Cutcliffe averaged almost 11 wins per season. His LOWEST win total was 8.... before the 12th game was added. That wasn't accomplished by saying an average of 8 wins was "really good".

Without Cutcliffe WAY too many excused him for WAY too long. He averaged under 8 wins per season with most of those seasons coming after the 12th game.

Averaging 7 or 8 wins is "really good" for UK... great for Vandy. If that's the program that others think acceptable... count me out.

Fan sentiment is and always has been far more powerful than you suggest.
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It doesn't bother me at all if you have ridiculously high expectations to go defeated every season. I just don't see those as reasonable. I support your right to 'knock yourself out'.

Unless those fans are donating, or attending games, or driving a media narrative, fan's sentiment is a non issue. I would like to see some tangible evidence where the casual fans impacted an established coach. If you have some to share, I would be happy to check it out. I've been to a handful of games the last 5 seasons. I don't know if you travel from Missouri to games regularly, or not. I don't see any examples where we message board warriors are consequential to our program.

ETA: Came back to ask why would you want to be counted out if others don't share your expectations? You've followed the program longer than some of the posters have lived. It doesn't detract from you watching the game. It doesn't impact your objective analysis of individual performance you share on VN. Why toss it all aside?
 
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#53
#53
sjt18 said:
How long is 2nd tier good enough for YOU?

The truth is that your scenario is unlikely. Like any other competitive "business" coaches are either rising or falling. You can't really improve precisely enough to remain "mediocre" by comparison.

FWIW, you more or less just described Butch Jones for his first 4 years.... and then we saw what happened especially in the 5th year. Again, you are either rising or falling.
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Butch beat Georgia and Florida in the same season, and still failed to win the SEC east. This is not the same. With the mass exodus to the portal, looming sanctions, and national view of our program right now, I think what you are proposing is optimistic, but unrealistic. Butch mismanaged a team loaded with talent. If not for Josh Dobbs, he would have been exposed much earlier.
 
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#54
#54
bigl3327 said:
Butch beat Georgia and Florida in the same season, and still failed to win the SEC east. This is not the same. With the mass exodus to the portal, looming sanctions, and national view of our program right now, I think what you are proposing is optimistic, but unrealistic. Butch mismanaged a team loaded with talent. If not for Josh Dobbs, he would have been exposed much earlier.
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every time I see a post that says Butch did this and that I think do people just block it out all together or just over look the fact that talent saved hiss butt more times than not.

Jones owes some checks to Dobbs, Jennings, Malone, and others for his shortcomings.
 
#55
#55
bigl3327 said:
Let's say Coach Heupel does what all previous coaches claimed they would do, and locks down the state in recruiting. Let's say the results of this after 5 seasons is consistent 8-4 or 9-3 type seasons, which allows the team to consistently finish 2nd or 3rd in the east and top 15-20 in the rankings. The offense is really good. The defense is really good. All of the losses are in close games (a touchdown or less). Multiple players are going in the draft every year. Do you put your support behind him for 5 more years, or do you clamor for a big name coach to get us to the next level?
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No...he won't last 2 years with that kind of performance.
 
#57
#57
It depends

Is he BLOWING huge games with idiotic play calling that indicates he has reached his ceiling? (Like Botch)

Or does it seem like a gradual progression with the talent gap being the only real impediment to the very top.

It would be a good start. Need to get back to consistent bowl games first.
 
#58
#58
sjt18 said:
Which one? The one with Cutcliffe or without? With Cutcliffe he averaged 10.75 wins per season. Without Cutcliffe he averaged 7.75 not counting the partial season in '92.
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Primarily, I am talking about the last four years to be specific. The era he had two losing seasons in four. The one he won 29 games against 21 losses for the average 7.25 wins each season. To put that into perspective, it is not like he was playing a 10 game season like in the old days where a 70% or 7 and 3 record was good.

You can utilize the Cutcliffe equation or not but what you can't deny is that he took over an already established program. That is a fact! Therefore, his record is and always will be skewed using any statistics and numbers.
 
#60
#60
bigl3327 said:
Butch beat Georgia and Florida in the same season, and still failed to win the SEC east. This is not the same. With the mass exodus to the portal, looming sanctions, and national view of our program right now, I think what you are proposing is optimistic, but unrealistic. Butch mismanaged a team loaded with talent. If not for Josh Dobbs, he would have been exposed much earlier.
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There hasn't been a "mass exodus". Some good players have left. There is opportunity to gain good players this year and next.

When we know if or what the sanctions will be then that will possibly be a mitigating factor. But if it is in line with recent sanctions then it should not be the limit on improvement that you seem to think. You can miss a bowl and lose 2 or 3 scholarships for a couple of years and still improve.

The "national view"? What do you even mean? Do you mean your view? To most of the nation including those following CFB closely UT's NCAA situation is pretty ho-hum. It has happened to others. It will happen to others. UT is taking a few lumps like many do. On the field... I'm not sure how firing a coach that was a very poor HC for blatant NCAA violations has a harmful net effect on image. Do you seriously think keeping a coach who lost to Georgia State and a mediocre BYU team in one season then followed it up with a non-competitive 3-7 team the next... who paid players... would be better for program image?

Right now, UT has hired a coach that seems to have sterling integrity. They fired a coach who was crooked. Heupel needs to be more competitive than expected which shouldn't be difficult considering how low the bar is being set... and all those "image" things you are worried about go away.

The history of significant turnarounds over the last 20-30 years is that they happen quickly following a coaching change. Bama was a mess when Saban arrived. Players left. Others were shown the door. They played lots of young guys early. After one difficult season in which they were competitive in every game... they took off and started winning championships.

USCw had lost at least 5 games in each of the five seasons before Carroll took over. They were 6-6 in his first year and then won at least 10 games for the next 7 seasons while playing for NC's.

We don't have to see that yet. UT may not have enough raw talent to see that. But significant and IMMEDIATE improvement is NOT unreasonable.
 
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#61
#61
McDad said:
It doesn't bother me at all if you have ridiculously high expectations to go defeated every season.
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It also apparently doesn't bother you to be dishonest since I never said that.

The rest of what you wrote... was about as honest.
 
#62
#62
8-4 is pretty dismal expectations for a total of a 10 year deal.

9-3 is still pretty rough but since we’ve sucked so much the past 15 years I think we may have to go all in if he’s at minimum 9-3 with a 10th win coming each bowl season.

Plus if they expand the CFP to 12 teams like is being rumored, then one extra regular season win against the Big 3 any given season should be enough to get us in as a lower seed.
 
#65
#65
bigl3327 said:
Let's say Coach Heupel does what all previous coaches claimed they would do, and locks down the state in recruiting. Let's say the results of this after 5 seasons is consistent 8-4 or 9-3 type seasons, which allows the team to consistently finish 2nd or 3rd in the east and top 15-20 in the rankings. The offense is really good. The defense is really good. All of the losses are in close games (a touchdown or less). Multiple players are going in the draft every year. Do you put your support behind him for 5 more years, or do you clamor for a big name coach to get us to the next level?
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Depends on if it's looking like we may take the next step. If the problem is Def. If he is looking at diff Coaches to bring in and shows hes trying to fix it ya you keep him. Tenn isn't a program to settle for 2nd or 3rd in the east. Pruitts downfall was he didn't even try and fix problems. The oline coach and qb coach needed fired immediately. Had he made attempts to fix things he is still here today I think. Pruitt being loyal to friends was his downfall. UT fans get a bad rep for not giving coaches time. We've been very patient if you ask me. Dooley was gave more time than should have been. Butch also. Let's be honest the finish to the year we beat Georgia and Florida then **** the bed and forced our way out the Sugar bowl. The writing was on the wall. If the new coach doesn't show he can win big in year 3 keeping him longer is just delaying the inevitable. I think everyone will know year one if we got the right guy. The right guy is gonna come in and win the games he should and compete with some he shouldn't. If we struggle with the likes of Vandy or oof teams that are way less talented I say let's get to kissing some more frogs.
 
#67
#67
bigl3327 said:
Let's say Coach Heupel does what all previous coaches claimed they would do, and locks down the state in recruiting. Let's say the results of this after 5 seasons is consistent 8-4 or 9-3 type seasons, which allows the team to consistently finish 2nd or 3rd in the east and top 15-20 in the rankings. The offense is really good. The defense is really good. All of the losses are in close games (a touchdown or less). Multiple players are going in the draft every year. Do you put your support behind him for 5 more years, or do you clamor for a big name coach to get us to the next level?
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I would definitely support. Given your scenario, if he goes two or three years with said record, the recruiting would definitely improve and our record would likely improve with much better talent continually coming in.
 
#68
#68
sjt18 said:
When we know if or what the sanctions will be then that will possibly be a mitigating factor. But if it is in line with recent sanctions then it should not be the limit on improvement that you seem to think. You can miss a bowl and lose 2 or 3 scholarships for a couple of years and still improve.

The "national view"? What do you even mean? Do you mean your view? To most of the nation including those following CFB closely UT's NCAA situation is pretty ho-hum. It has happened to others. It will happen to others. UT is taking a few lumps like many do. On the field... I'm not sure how firing a coach that was a very poor HC for blatant NCAA violations has a harmful net effect on image. Do you seriously think keeping a coach who lost to Georgia State and a mediocre BYU team in one season then followed it up with a non-competitive 3-7 team the next... who paid players... would be better for program image?

Right now, UT has hired a coach that seems to have sterling integrity. They fired a coach who was crooked. Heupel needs to be more competitive than expected which shouldn't be difficult considering how low the bar is being set... and all those "image" things you are worried about go away.


USCw had lost at least 5 games in each of the five seasons before Carroll took over. They were 6-6 in his first year and then won at least 10 games for the next 7 seasons while playing for NC's.

We don't have to see that yet. UT may not have enough raw talent to see that. But significant and IMMEDIATE improvement is NOT unreasonable.
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Good post, but Carroll did it the Pruitt way. . . . Pay for Play and he got caught, just as we did. Not a good referral, in my book.
 
#69
#69
hog88 said:
If after 5 years we can't beat a UGA, UF or Bama we are nothing but a KY and that's not good enough. He has to have wins over 2 of the 3 within his first 5 seasons.
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Good enough for Johnny Majors! He got 16 years and only has winning records against LSU, Ole Miss, Kentucky and Vandy in the SEC.

All the OP is asking for is what we had in 2007. What would we give to have the old 2000's record back? 3 SEC championship games in the decade and we got rid of the coach at the end, one year removed from the SEC CG.

Hell, there's no telling what the decision makers will do.....
 
#70
#70
VolDave53 said:
Good post, but Carroll did it the Pruitt way. . . . Pay for Play and he got caught, just as we did. Not a good referral, in my book.
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I recall that different. I thought it was boosters who paid Bush? Was Carroll personally, directly implicated?
 
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#71
#71
sjt18 said:
It also apparently doesn't bother you to be dishonest since I never said that.

The rest of what you wrote... was about as honest.
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My goodness you are a salty today. Perhaps I have given you too much credit that you don't read into a post and you take it on face value.
Nothing I have discussed is an any way an attack on you, what you think, how you think, or why you think it. It doesn't bother me if you have expectations to go undefeated. Maybe a clearer structure to the sentence is, ...if you were to have undefeated expectations.

The second part of what I wrote was sharing how I formed my opinion re: casual fans and a legitimate question if you have evidence showing casual fans impacting an established coach and another legit question why you would want to be counted out if others didn't share your expectations.

If you can't answer those questions we can chalk it up to an inability to answer or maybe because you're having a bad day. Maybe you simply find me and my posts detestable...which is fine; a lot of people do.
 
#74
#74
ru4real-really? said:
I think everybody might be underestimating our coach!
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I would like to see how the board mood changes if this turns out to be true. A lot of us tend to avoid the FF due to the level of chronic acrimony. And that's coming from someone who mostly posts in the politics forum, lol.
If CJH turns out to be our Steve Spurrier (offensive guru) and has great results over a long, sustained tenure, it would be an amazing thing to witness. Simply looking at our schedule with legitimate belief we have a competitive chance would feel great to me.
 
#75
#75
KarnsTownVol said:
Depends on if it's looking like we may take the next step. If the problem is Def. If he is looking at diff Coaches to bring in and shows hes trying to fix it ya you keep him. Tenn isn't a program to settle for 2nd or 3rd in the east. Pruitts downfall was he didn't even try and fix problems. The oline coach and qb coach needed fired immediately. Had he made attempts to fix things he is still here today I think. Pruitt being loyal to friends was his downfall. UT fans get a bad rep for not giving coaches time. We've been very patient if you ask me. Dooley was gave more time than should have been. Butch also. Let's be honest the finish to the year we beat Georgia and Florida then **** the bed and forced our way out the Sugar bowl. The writing was on the wall. If the new coach doesn't show he can win big in year 3 keeping him longer is just delaying the inevitable. I think everyone will know year one if we got the right guy. The right guy is gonna come in and win the games he should and compete with some he shouldn't. If we struggle with the likes of Vandy or oof teams that are way less talented I say let's get to kissing some more frogs.
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I like the thought about defense. CJH's offense is unique. It is proven. We aren't testing the waters with it. But offense and defense have to play complimentary football (forgive the butchism). Is it possible that defensive schemes will need time to catch up to the evolution of offense so that a complete team is assembled. If so, assuming the offense is the real deal here, I would lean to keep him even if his overall record is in line with our historical record.
 
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