Gun control debate (merged)

[StarRaider]

NH is a pretty nice state. I could see myself living there if it didn't get so cold.

Sig Sauer disagrees

 

[Pepe_Silvia]

Sig Sauer disagrees

Ruger as well.

 

[Jxn Vol]

Not as many as you will trying to understand a simple concept.

Your concept makes as much sense as a football bat.

 

[Carl Pickens]

You claimed you wanted legit convo. You do not.

For you to be legit, you will need to provide conclusive evidence employers own the government instead of claiming it as accepted knowledge.

Secondly you will need to prove collusion of all employers both large and small and how that collusion is de facto monopolistic employment availability.

Your claim to want real discussion is garbage. Your attempt to connect 2A and unionization is garbage. Your reply to my post is garbage.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Right to work laws and prevailing wage repeal laws are recent examples. Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Ohio have recently had numerous measures passed designed to bust unions. Gov Walker’s ACT 10 in Wisconsin also comes to mind.

I pointed out the connection. If you prefer to play dumb, then play dumb.

You don't think employees should have a choice in whether they join a union or not? Are you pro-choice?

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Wtf do unions have to do with the 2A?

No, he's being more obtuse than just that. He's making a connection between 2A and collective bargaining...

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Come on, don’t be naive. First off, “employers” own the government and have for a while, so distinguishing between the two like they have nothing to do with one another is disingenuous.

Second, I hope you know the history of big business and how it has controlled/ruled the country via monopolies for decades at a time over the centuries creating the necessity for organized labor from Iowa to West Virginia to Detroit. If you don’t know, I can fill you in.

Remember this conversation the next time conservatives complain about the power that these social media monopolies have. OK?

 

[Pepe_Silvia]

Remember this conversation the next time conservatives complain about the power that these social media monopolies have. OK?

I don't think he realizes that he's making an argument against government when he points out that corporations own government.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Not as many as you will trying to understand a simple concept.

Its not a simple concept. The 2A is about protecting the individual from criminals, an invading army or an over-reaching govt. That is an individual decision that a citizen has that isn't dependent on a collective or group.

Collective bargaining or unions are a collective or actions of a collective that protect employees from abuses from "The Man" and "supposedly" from wage pressures domestically or internationally. I say "supposedly" because I haven't seen the labor unions do diddly-squat about the flooding of our borders with low wage workers.

The 2A is an individual decision on protecting life, liberty and property.
Unions are a collectivist decision on protecting wages and work conditions.
I'm not sure how you are connecting those dots...

 

[OHvol40]

You claimed you wanted legit convo. You do not.

For you to be legit, you will need to provide conclusive evidence employers own the government instead of claiming it as accepted knowledge.

Secondly you will need to prove collusion of all employers both large and small and how that collusion is de facto monopolistic employment availability.

Your claim to want real discussion is garbage. Your attempt to connect 2A and unionization is garbage. Your reply to my post is garbage.

Just because you claim it is, or because you can’t reconcile the fact that 2A and unions are two sides of the same coin. Claiming there is a difference in govt and business is weak. If you don’t like your government, vote them out just like you use the example of changing employers.

What you can’t reconcile is history shows that both can be tyrannical and citizens need weapons to defend against both as such.

Now move along if this idea offends you in some way that you can’t discuss it seriously.

 

[OHvol40]

Remember this conversation the next time conservatives complain about the power that these social media monopolies have. OK?

Then break them up. I think that’s healthy for everyone (sans the social media execs)

 

[C-south]

Just because you claim it is, or because you can’t reconcile the fact that 2A and unions are two sides of the same coin. Claiming there is a difference in govt and business is weak. If you don’t like your government, vote them out just like you use the example of changing employers.

What you can’t reconcile is history shows that both can be tyrannical and citizens need weapons to defend against both as such.

Now move along if this idea offends you in some way that you can’t discuss it seriously.

Double up on your f***ing meds. The 2A and unions have absolutely zero to do with one another. This is beyond a conspiracy theory.

 

[OHvol40]

Its not a simple concept. The 2A is about protecting the individual from criminals, an invading army or an over-reaching govt. That is an individual decision that a citizen has that isn't dependent on a collective or group.

Collective bargaining or unions are a collective or actions of a collective that protect employees from abuses from "The Man" and "supposedly" from wage pressures domestically or internationally. I say "supposedly" because I haven't seen the labor unions do diddly-squat about the flooding of our borders with low wage workers.

The 2A is an individual decision on protecting life, liberty and property.
Unions are a collectivist decision on protecting wages and work conditions.
I'm not sure how you are connecting those dots...

What is that bit in the 2A about “well regulated militia?” Doesn’t sound like it is geared toward the individual at all. Plus a right, as it were, applies to the masses as a protection to the collective citizenry... you know, the whole reasoning behind establishing the 2nd amendment in the first place.

 

[OHvol40]

Double up on your f***ing meds. The 2A and unions have absolutely zero to do with one another. This is beyond a conspiracy theory.

I figured 90% of you would be befuddled and come with insults and no substance. A safe bet, I know... you rarely disappoint.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

What is that bit in the 2A about “well regulated militia?” Doesn’t sound like it is geared toward the individual at all. Plus a right, as it were, applies to the masses as a protection to the collective citizenry... you know, the whole reasoning behind establishing the 2nd amendment in the first place.

I figured you would go there, that's why I specifically said an individual decision. A citizen vs a criminal is often an encounter that occurs without a "militia", for example.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

What is that bit in the 2A about “well regulated militia?” Doesn’t sound like it is geared toward the individual at all. Plus a right, as it were, applies to the masses as a protection to the collective citizenry... you know, the whole reasoning behind establishing the 2nd amendment in the first place.

If anything, this is simply an extension of 1A... the right of gun owners to assemble and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. ..

 

[OHvol40]

I figured you would go there, that's why I specifically said an individual decision. A citizen vs a criminal is often an encounter that occurs without a "militia", for example.

And that is why I specifically pointed out the 2A defender’s justification of maintaining the right to fend off tyrannical govt as my comparison to the purpose of a Union.

 

[OHvol40]

If anything, this is simply an extension of 1A... the right of gun owners to assemble and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. ..

Lol that is quite a stretch. C+

I would say it’s more of a theme of the bill of rights in general (protecting citizens from government) than an extension of 1A. A militia and free speech/assembly are two different things, addressing different problems perceived by the FF.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Lol that is quite a stretch. C+

I would say it’s more of a theme of the bill of rights in general (protecting citizens from government) than an extension of 1A. A militia and free speech/assembly are two different things, addressing different problems perceived by the FF.

You don't have a 1A without 2A...

 

[C-south]

I figured 90% of you would be befuddled and come with insults and no substance. A safe bet, I know... you rarely disappoint.

Lol. No substance? You’re the epitome of it.

 

[C-south]

Right to work laws and prevailing wage repeal laws are recent examples. Michigan, Illinois, Wisconsin, and Ohio have recently had numerous measures passed designed to bust unions. Gov Walker’s ACT 10 in Wisconsin also comes to mind.

I pointed out the connection. If you prefer to play dumb, then play dumb.

And none of it has f***ing thing to do with the right to bear arms. Unions are antiquated. Companies move to areas without unions. When workers hint at unionizing the company moves to a right to work state or areas without unions. Unions hold little power except in a few strongholds that are ironically majority dim. I live in SC where jobs have been moved from areas to here simply because of unions. Maybe you should focus more on unions donating to a CERTAIN political party hence influencing elections and our voting rights. None of the bs you’re spewing remotely has anything to do with the 2A.

 

[C-south]

What is that bit in the 2A about “well regulated militia?” Doesn’t sound like it is geared toward the individual at all. Plus a right, as it were, applies to the masses as a protection to the collective citizenry... you know, the whole reasoning behind establishing the 2nd amendment in the first place.

There’s a reason there’s commas in there and you don’t even have to strain your minuscule brain if you research actual context from the forefathers after the constitution was written. That is if grammar and comprehension is too difficult for you.

 

[LouderVol]

Here is something I haven’t ever been able to reconcile, maybe some of you can shed some light.

How can a person simultaneously be a 2A absolutist and anti-union? The reasoning that most give to preserve the 2A at all costs also rings true for preserving collective bargaining rights... common people having the ability to fend off tyranny. The two even cross paths historically, with the first labor organizers exercising their 2A rights to fight off being trampled by big business, even shedding blood in exchanges with strike breakers. Both have also had their share of negative press and rocky history.

To me these ideas are fundamentally married, but in today’s world conservatives don’t recognize them the same way. It can’t be free market ideals because collective bargaining is part of a free market, just people exercising their ability to maximize income. So what is it specifically that makes a lot of conservatives all-in on 2A and disgusted by unions?

Lol. This is some mighty warped thinking you have here.

Just because an entity uses something doesnt create some ideological link.

Especially in this case because the corporations also used guns...
The Pinkerton "private security" also used guns.

The 2A in tied to private citizens. Period.

 

[LouderVol]

What is that bit in the 2A about “well regulated militia?” Doesn’t sound like it is geared toward the individual at all. Plus a right, as it were, applies to the masses as a protection to the collective citizenry... you know, the whole reasoning behind establishing the 2nd amendment in the first place.

But it's not required. You arent required to own a gun, you arent required to belong to a militia. Your link of unionhood and 2A breaks down at even a surface level inspection.

 

[0nelilreb]

And that is why I specifically pointed out the 2A defender’s justification of maintaining the right to fend off tyrannical govt as my comparison to the purpose of a Union.

I’m curious , do you belong to or have you spent a considerable amount of time in a strong union ? I’m also curious if you’ve spent time on the other side ( management positions )

Edit : I’ve been on both sides and just curious about your experiences before getting into a discussion.