2020 Presidential Race

Your assertion is illogical; the judge clearly states the opposite of what you claim.

That the Repub legislature didn't do their job beforehand, doesn't grant constitutionality to Act 77. Nor does it preclude them (or the courts), now that there are damages by the act, from doing their job now.

Surely even you can see how banal your statement is..?

Yeah, I wouldn't hold your breath on it. It's interesting that a Republican legislature passed Act 77 in October 2019, allowed the act to be used in multiple elections, and then decided to challenge the constitutionality of the act they passed after it caused them to lose an election. Regardless of the constitutionality of the act, there is no possible world in which an equitable solution is to throw out the votes in the previous election--the Republican legislature passed the law and now wants to use the fact that they passed an unconstitutional law to disenfranchise millions of voters. I wouldn't be surprised if the law (or provisions of it) are struck down going forward, but I don't personally see the courts throwing out millions of votes.
 
So “doesn’t smell right” didn’t fly, and we’re on to trying to throw out the election by means other than proving fraud. That about right?

Funny to see the “I am not a Trumpkin” folks openly admitting that anything will do as long as Trump remains president.
Burden shifting, not a good strategy
 
What is very clear here is that Jo Jorgensen won this election. Early on election night she was tied with Trump/Biden and then all of a sudden these (ridiculous) fraudulent votes began to pour in for the corrupt institution’s candidates.

Unless Trump and Biden can prove their votes weren’t fraud, the House delegations should step in and make sure Jo Jorgensen is our nation’s next POTUS.
 
Yeah, I wouldn't hold your breath on it. It's interesting that a Republican legislature passed Act 77 in October 2019, allowed the act to be used in multiple elections, and then decided to challenge the constitutionality of the act they passed after it caused them to lose an election. Regardless of the constitutionality of the act, there is no possible world in which an equitable solution is to throw out the votes in the previous election--the Republican legislature passed the law and now wants to use the fact that they passed an unconstitutional law to disenfranchise millions of voters. I wouldn't be surprised if the law (or provisions of it) are struck down going forward, but I don't personally see the courts throwing out millions of votes.

Hold up; it doesn't matter who passed an unconstitutional act, it's origins, how many elections conducted under it, or why it is being challenged - or by whom - now. It only matters whether the act is found constitutional when challenged.

That the idea illegal votes should be excluded is unfathomable - regardless of their number - is itself unfathomable. You don't disenfranchise the votes of an entire country over illegal votes in a state, or even a handful. *Of course* you throw out those votes, if you're at all concerned with retaining a constitutional republic.
 
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Yeah, I wouldn't hold your breath on it. It's interesting that a Republican legislature passed Act 77 in October 2019, allowed the act to be used in multiple elections, and then decided to challenge the constitutionality of the act they passed after it caused them to lose an election. Regardless of the constitutionality of the act, there is no possible world in which an equitable solution is to throw out the votes in the previous election--the Republican legislature passed the law and now wants to use the fact that they passed an unconstitutional law to disenfranchise millions of voters. I wouldn't be surprised if the law (or provisions of it) are struck down going forward, but I don't personally see the courts throwing out millions of votes.
Her opinion stated the opposite, actually.

And the Constitution does as well, per the "No possible world..." part.
 
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Burden shifting, not a good strategy
I agree. The “doesn’t smell right” stuff was an attempt to shift the burden. “We’ve crossed some imaginary/arbitrary threshold, now you have to return serve.”
Yeah, I wouldn't hold your breath on it. It's interesting that a Republican legislature passed Act 77 in October 2019, allowed the act to be used in multiple elections, and then decided to challenge the constitutionality of the act they passed after it caused them to lose an election. Regardless of the constitutionality of the act, there is no possible world in which an equitable solution is to throw out the votes in the previous election--the Republican legislature passed the law and now wants to use the fact that they passed an unconstitutional law to disenfranchise millions of voters. I wouldn't be surprised if the law (or provisions of it) are struck down going forward, but I don't personally see the courts throwing out millions of votes.
The word of the day should be: Laches.

Also, hat tip to you for the higher effort posts.
 
Hold up; it doesn't matter who passed an unconstitutional act, it's origins, how many elections conducted under it, or why it is being challenged - or by whom - now. It only matters whether the act is found constitutional when challenged.
That's an interesting notion, but it's not held up by, you know, actual law. This is a pretty textbook example of a case where laches would apply.

That the idea illegal votes should be excluded is unfathomable - regardless of their number - is itself unfathomable. You don't disenfranchise the votes of an entire country over illegal votes in a state, or even a handful. *Of course* you throw out those votes, if you're at all concerned with retaining a constitutional republic.
The only solution in which voters would be disenfranchised would be if votes were tossed out. There's no demonstrable harm caused by the "illegal" votes in Pennsylvania. Had the law been different, all of those voters would have been able to cast "legal" votes and the results would be the same.
 
Oh, I believe more strongly than ever that Trump will remain for his second term, with a Constitutionally decided victory.

I'm with you on that, I think you know that I am. I have been saying since week of election that the computers would be the final blow. I was concerned that they could overcome all the fraud with MSM help, but the computers would be their downfall. Progress in fraud is being shown more than I had faith in.
 
I know; and I'd love to agree with you; but I've been around long enough to know that governments, bureaucracies, and especially government bureaucracies have all kinds of contingency plans to protect themselves. I'd be stunned if the government failed to protect itself in a massive blunder - particularly a fraudulent one; I just refuse to get my hopes up that something of this magnitude will be corrected. For example, the "system" managed to elect a washed up professional politician with dementia and a trail of unethical behavior - shouldn't have even been in the running.

By the way, I think the dirty Republican party realizes that this has now become an existential battle.

If the #s of Trump voters are true, the Republican party is finished if they are perceived to have sold Trump out on this--i.e. that (i) believe there was fraud, and (ii) say they'll leave the R party for a Trump third party.

I don't know that the Republican party will survive this if they choose protecting the system over Trump.
 
I know; and I'd love to agree with you; but I've been around long enough to know that governments, bureaucracies, and especially government bureaucracies have all kinds of contingency plans to protect themselves. I'd be stunned if the government failed to protect itself in a massive blunder - particularly a fraudulent one; I just refuse to get my hopes up that something of this magnitude will be corrected. For example, the "system" managed to elect a washed up professional politician with dementia and a trail of unethical behavior - shouldn't have even been in the running.

I agree with you, especially if it happened to any former Presidents, I am confident they would have folded by now. But, I think Trump would like to buck the system and be known as the guy that beat the system. Being able to say, "I told you so" means all the world to him.
 
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Good breakdown of the stats.

You’re wasting your time with some of these knuckleheads. The only data they will pay attention to is some twisted version of statistics that show trump somehow won.
Yeah, I'm not holding my breath on convincing some people. I was interested in digging in deeper to the "bellwether counties", however, as I hadn't seen a real detailed look of their demographics and voting record, so I decided to take a look myself. I figured some other people might also be interested in the data, because it really is a fascinating look at why these counties have historically gotten it "right" and why they didn't follow the trend in this election.
 
There are three types of Trump loyalists in this forum:
1) Smart, yet misguided and will go to great lengths to rationalize his behavior

2) Smart, yet don't give a damn that he's a classless rube and feckless coward

3) Not too bright and uninformed

Strange, it matches every Dem on here also.
 
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I apologize. You're obviously intelligent and informed. I'm certain there are posters who appreciate your posts. I just feel you're a bit misguided in your defense of Trump
**** Trump.
Follow the constitution of the states and the federal government. Let the chips fall where they may and let’s take steps to make sure this crap doesn’t happen again
 
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So “doesn’t smell right” didn’t fly, and we’re on to trying to throw out the election by means other than proving fraud. That about right?

Funny to see the “I am not a Trumpkin” folks openly admitting that anything will do as long as Trump remains president.

I don't think you are actually reading in detail. Most all here have said we are not Trumpsters, we really don't like him personally, wish he would be more presidential, wish we had a better choice to vote for, etc, etc.
It is about not wanting anything Biden or what he stands for. We have said both parties did not have a great choice or representative to vote for. Actually, I can't remember hardly anyone saying it is all about Trump, no it is all about integrity in elections and wanting to avoid the socialist push that the Democrat party is aligning with.
 
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That's an interesting notion, but it's not held up by, you know, actual law. This is a pretty textbook example of a case where laches would apply.


The only solution in which voters would be disenfranchised would be if votes were tossed out. There's no demonstrable harm caused by the "illegal" votes in Pennsylvania. Had the law been different, all of those voters would have been able to cast "legal" votes and the results would be the same.

My reading of the judge's opinion is that she radically differs from your sentiment, most especially the bolded. She specifically wrote:

Accordingly,in careful consideration of the exigencies and time constraintsin this matter of statewide and national import, and the longstandingconstitutional mandate that everycitizen of this Commonwealth is entitled to no less than a fair and free election, it was necessary to preliminarily enjoin, on an emergency and temporary basis, Executive Respondents from undertaking any other actionswith respect to the certification of the results of the presidential and vice presidential elections, if indeed anything else needs to be done, pending an evidentiary hearing to ascertain the facts of this matterand to determineif the dispute is moot.

She seems to indicate the belief that an unconstitutional/unfair election hurts every citizen of the state.

She goes on to confirm that he plaintiffs seem to have established the unconstitutionality of the election:

Additionally, Petitioners appear to have established a likelihood to succeed on the merits because Petitioners have asserted the Constitution does not provide a mechanism for the legislature to allow for expansion of absentee voting without a constitutional amendment.Petitioners appear to have a viable claim that the mail-in ballot procedures set forth in Act 77 contravene Pa.

She indicates that allowing illegal votes to stand actually harm legal voters:

The other voters in this case assert theirconstitutional voting rights as citizens of Pennsylvania would be irreparably harmed.

Which is logically consistent with the thought that illegal votes cancel legal votes.

She seems to indicate that setting aside the election (in favor of legislator appointments) would be untenable ONLY IF:

11Const. Article VIISection14 as the plain language of that constitutional provision is at odds with the mail-in provisions of Act 77.Since this presents an issue of law which has already been thoroughly briefed by the parties, this Court can state that Petitioners have a likelihood of success on the merits of its Pennsylvania Constitutional claim.Without the emergency relief ordered by this Court,there would be the likelihood of irreparable harm to Petitioners.As to Petitioner Kelly, although it appears that he gainedthe most votes in the election for the office he seeks, that result has yet to be certified. Further, he may suffer irreparable harm prospectively should he seek election to public office in the future. If what may be an unconstitutional mail-in voting process remains extant, such mail-in ballots may make the difference as to whether he is successful or not.As to Petitioners Parnell and Logan, mail-in ballots may have made the difference as to whether they have won or lost their respective elections. Hence, their fates may well turn upon the constitutionality of Act 77. The other voters in this case assert theirconstitutional voting rights as citizens of Pennsylvania would be irreparably harmed.Conversely, since the relief ordered by the Court is on an emergency basis, Respondents face no irreparable harm.In any event, the matter of irreparable harm would have been assessed at the evidentiary hearing.The relief ordered by this Court is also in the public interest. Any claim that the voters of this Commonwealth are disenfranchised by this Court’s order are spurious.The Order at issue does nothing more than preserve the status quo pending further and immediate review.That being said, this Court is mindful that one of the alternative reliefs noted by Petitioners would cause the

12disenfranchisementof the nearly seven million Pennsylvanians who voted in the 2020 General Election.Specifically, Respondents claim that a temporary stay would disenfranchise voters as the legislature would appoint the electors to the Election College.However, as noted, the legislature is not authorized to appoint the electors to the Electoral College until December 8, the “Federal Safe Harbor”date for certifying results for presidential electors.The Court agrees itwould be untenablefor the legislature to appoint the electorswhere an election has already occurred, if the majority of voters who did not vote by mail entered their votes in accord with a constitutionally recognized method, as such action would result in the disenfranchisement of every voter in the Commonwealth who voted in this election –not only those whose ballots are being challenged due to the constitutionality of Act 77. However, this is not the only equitable remedy available in amatter which hinges upon upholding amost basic constitutional rightof the people to afair and free election.Hence, Respondents have not established that greater harm will result in providing emergency relief, than the harm suffered by the public due to the results of a purportedly unconstitutional election.

She seems to default to the legal idea that every voter deserves a valid/constitutional election, and the burden of proof should be to prove that wrong.
 
So “doesn’t smell right” didn’t fly, and we’re on to trying to throw out the election by means other than proving fraud. That about right?

Funny to see the “I am not a Trumpkin” folks openly admitting that anything will do as long as Trump remains president.
Apparently our only shot to remain a constitutional republic is to throw out votes after the election is over.
 
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Since you're confident that Trump is still going to be the president when the smoke clears, would you be willing to take a self impose year long ban bet of not posting in the Politics forum if he isn't?

Classic example of a socialist belief.
So, I don't get my freedom of speech, but you do?
So, if I don't agree with you then I should be suppressed? That really does not match with socialism, but it does with Communism. Talk against the party and be sent away to education camp.
Next thing the people on VN that do not agree with you will be put on your list?
Your type of thinking is exactly what we are fighting.
 
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