Coronavirus (No politics)

Good grief some of you need to learn how to connect dots. A guy responsible for a report that suggested carnage on a level unseen in our lives cant just say "oops I made a mistake". A mistake that just happened to be used by leaders to shut a world economy down.

That is clearly not what he said, I really wish you would stop spreading false information. Did you read the quotes or the article? To summarize again, he said essentially that what the report advocated for, public health measures to reduce mortality, looked like it would work in accomplishing that goal. Not "oops I made a mistake" as you are fond of saying.

If you want to bother to understand a topic rather than spreading lies that suit your preconceived notions this is a good summary of his comments and the misinterpretation of them endorsed by Neil Ferguson himself:

https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2020/03/26/1585245384000/Let-s-flatten-the-coronavirus-confusion-curve/
 
That is clearly not what he said, I really wish you would stop spreading false information. Did you read the quotes or the article? To summarize again, he said essentially that what the report advocated for, public health measures to reduce mortality, looked like it would work in accomplishing that goal. Not "oops I made a mistake" as you are fond of saying.

If you want to bother to understand a topic rather than spreading lies that suit your preconceived notions this is a good summary of his comments and the misinterpretation of them endorsed by Neil Ferguson himself:

https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2020/03/26/1585245384000/Let-s-flatten-the-coronavirus-confusion-curve/

I didnt say he said that, I said he cant say that. This is a discussion on human nature and self preservation. He may truly believe what he is saying and what you say he is saying. I can meet you there.

But you are naive if you think for one second that if he did F up, that he could even come remotely close to coming out and saying that at this point.
 
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Sounds like he created an astronomical number..remember no other country has even reached a 1/1000 infection/population rate and then takes credit because two of the world's biggest economies shut down for being wrong about the casualties

He never said he was wrong about the casualties? In the original modeling paper it shows significant decreases in mortality if social distancing and public health measures are put in place. Quoting any infection/population rate currently with the small sample size and severe limitations on testing as a comparison to modeled expectations doesn't make much sense to me. Especially considering you are comparing confirmed tests to modeled numbers (estimates of how undercounted we are currently). I believe a previous poster pointed out that numbers for influenza produced by the CDC are based on models as well as we cannot possibly test every person in the population who contracts the illness.

His model may ultimately prove to be inaccurate and will likely not be completely precise due to the inherent problem of trying to predict the future. But sure beats burying your head in the sand and hoping for the best.

But my main point was simply that it was stated that Neil Ferguson has changed his model, which he has explicitly stated he has not done. Saying that he has is false but lends credence to the notion that all of the public health efforts are a waste and doing harm to what would have been a perfect beautiful economy. I don't think the economy was ever going to be unchanged by this but that is an aside. My main point is that you shouldn't base arguments on false information and misquotes.
 
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I didnt say he said that, I said he cant say that. This is a discussion on human nature and self preservation. He may truly believe what he is saying and what you say he is saying. I can meet you there.

But you are naive if you think for one second that if he did F up, that he could even come remotely close to coming out and saying that at this point.

I guess we can agree that on the whole for people, admitting you are wrong is embarrassing? Seems like a far cry from insinuating that he knows his model is wrong and is somehow hiding it by continuing to endorse the social distancing he has always advocated for to me though.
 
Thank you for the reply. I read through the article you have linked to and it states that the change in expected mortalities is a direct result of the social distancing measures put in place, rather than a change to the model itself as a result of more being infected than previously believed.

According to the article from The Daily Beast (Expert Who Inspired Lockdown Says Britain’s Health System Will Now Cope):

"Ferguson said he now believes the number of fatalities in Britain could be well below the 20,000 he previously forecast. He told the BBC Today program on Thursday: “With the lockdown now in place, those numbers are going to start to plateau.”

He clarified the confusion himself:
@neil_ferguson
Mar 26

1/4 - I think it would be helpful if I cleared up some confusion that has emerged in recent days. Some have interpreted my evidence to a UK parliamentary committee as indicating we have substantially revised our assessments of the potential mortality impact of COVID-19.


2/4 -This is not the case. Indeed, if anything, our latest estimates suggest that the virus is slightly more transmissible than we previously thought. Our lethality estimates remain unchanged.

3/4 - My evidence to Parliament referred to the deaths we assess might occur in the UK in the presence of the very intensive social distancing and other public health interventions now in place.

4/4 - Without those controls, our assessment remains that the UK would see the scale of deaths reported in our study (namely, up to approximately 500 thousand).

Epidemiologist Behind Highly-Cited Coronavirus Model Drastically Downgrades Projection

Sorry, been busy. This is where he cites where more people had it beforehand.
 
He never said he was wrong about the casualties? In the original modeling paper it shows significant decreases in mortality if social distancing and public health measures are put in place. Quoting any infection/population rate currently with the small sample size and severe limitations on testing as a comparison to modeled expectations doesn't make much sense to me. Especially considering you are comparing confirmed tests to modeled numbers (estimates of how undercounted we are currently). I believe a previous poster pointed out that numbers for influenza produced by the CDC are based on models as well as we cannot possibly test every person in the population who contracts the illness.

His model may ultimately prove to be inaccurate and will likely not be completely precise due to the inherent problem of trying to predict the future. But sure beats burying your head in the sand and hoping for the best.

But my main point was simply that it was stated that Neil Ferguson has changed his model, which he has explicitly stated he has not done. Saying that he has is false but lends credence to the notion that all of the public health efforts are a waste and doing harm to what would have been a perfect beautiful economy. I don't think the economy was ever going to be unchanged by this but that is an aside. My main point is that you shouldn't base arguments on false information and misquotes.

Read the one I just sent. He did change it and after only a couple of days of mitigation
 
I guess we can agree that on the whole for people, admitting you are wrong is embarrassing? Seems like a far cry from insinuating that he knows his model is wrong and is somehow hiding it by continuing to endorse the social distancing he has always advocated for to me though.

I think his model was worse case and he and everyone else knows it’s a prediction
 
Epidemiologist Behind Highly-Cited Coronavirus Model Drastically Downgrades Projection

Sorry, been busy. This is where he cites where more people had it beforehand.

Looks like they stopped quoting him when they starting talking about:

"
A higher rate of transmission than expected means that more people have the virus than previously expected; when the number of those with coronavirus is divided by the number of deaths, therefore, the mortality rate for the disease drops.


Based on both those revised estimates and the lockdown measures taken by the British government, the epidemiologist predicts, hospitals will be just fine taking on COVID-19 patients and estimates 20,000 or far fewer people will die from the virus itself or from its agitation of other ailments, as reported by New Scientist Wednesday."

Ferguson said:

“I should admit, we’ve always been sensitive in the analysis in the modeling to a variety of levels or values to those quantities. What we’ve been seeing, though, in Europe in the last week or two is a rate of growth of the epidemic which was faster than we expected from early data in China. And so we are revising our quotes, our central best estimate of the reproduction… something more, a little bit above of the order of three or a little bit above rather than about 2.5.” He added, “the current values are still within the wide range of values which modeling groups [unintelligible] we should have been looking at previously.”

Those were the article writers, not Ferguson himself.

They then go on to talk about an Oxford study which has different assumptions that more are infected than we realize and adjusted their model for that.

So I think it's definitely valid to argue that maybe the Oxford guys got it right and not Feguson. I'm just saying he didn't revise his and I think it's being conflated with the new Oxford study.
 
Last 3 days new cases
26th 17,224
27th 18,691
28th 19,452
The deaths are troubling to see even though the death rate is around 1.8% I suppose if we followed seasonal flu cases closely we would see quite a few deaths also. Are there any positives from these 3 days that maybe it is leveling out and not growing 2-3 fold daily?
 
I guess we can agree that on the whole for people, admitting you are wrong is embarrassing? Seems like a far cry from insinuating that he knows his model is wrong and is somehow hiding it by continuing to endorse the social distancing he has always advocated for to me though.

I would say embarrasing is not an appropriate term here, if my scenario were correct.

If I tell my buddy that his wife is cheating on him and the guy goes home and commits a murder suicide and after that I find out I was wrong, embarrasing does not fit.

If my scenario were correct, he has at a minimum committed professional suicide and at worst put a literal target on his back. People have gone to greater lengths for something far less, to protect themselves.

Also, he is not hiding it by endorsing social distancing. Social distancing is valid if your job scope is to prevent deaths and limit spread.
 
Last 3 days new cases
26th 17,224
27th 18,691
28th 19,452
The deaths are troubling to see even though the death rate is around 1.8% I suppose if we followed seasonal flu cases closely we would see quite a few deaths also. Are there any positives from these 3 days that maybe it is leveling out and not growing 2-3 fold daily?

There are signs that social distancing is working in the US, even as the country becomes the coronavirus pandemic epicenter

Take that for what its worth. I was surprised so many people have “Smart thermometers” and allow the data to be shared.
 
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Has any one else noticed that weather.com has replaced part of it's bottom bar with a Covid 19 section? It looks just like a zoomable weather map. It's color coded by county based on the number of cases. There's some societal impact for you.
 
Last edited:
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I would say embarrasing is not an appropriate term here, if my scenario were correct.

If I tell my buddy that his wife is cheating on him and the guy goes home and commits a murder suicide and after that I find out I was wrong, embarrasing does not fit.

If my scenario were correct, he has at a minimum committed professional suicide and at worst put a literal target on his back. People have gone to greater lengths for something far less, to protect themselves.

Also, he is not hiding it by endorsing social distancing. Social distancing is valid if your job scope is to prevent deaths and limit spread.

Doesn’t the fact that he never walked back his previous estimate make the rest “degree of badness of being wrong” irrelevant?


So the whole conspiracy that he is now protecting himself for making a prediction he now realizes is wrong is disproved by the fact that he never corrected himself and what he said remains consistent with his original model. If you read the paper he published he demonstrates widely different estimates of mortality IF mitigation and suppression are enacted.

That’s why the paper is titled:

“Impact of non-pharmaceutical interventions to reduce Covid-19 mortality and Healthcare demand”

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/im...-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf

If you look down in the paper to the tables detailing it, you can see his estimate of deaths with aggressive mitigation and suppression strategies vary from ~5,000 on the low end to 48K on the high end depending on a few variables. Namely, R0 (effectively how contagious it is as measured by the number of new people infected for each person with the disease as I understand it) and what he calls “on trigger” which is how long authorities wait to enact strategies as measured by number of new cases per week. In the paper he admits how impractical it would be to shut everything down completely for extended periods of time and offers an alternative of cycling measures on and off while monitoring the level of disease burden in the population closely until we can get proven treatments and ultimately a vaccine.

It sounds juicy that he changed his mind and everything we’re doing is stupid and life can just go back to normal. There’s arguments to be made but Neil Ferguson walking back his estimate just doesn’t have any evidence behind it other than sounding enticing.
 

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Doesn’t the fact that he never walked back his previous estimate make the rest “degree of badness of being wrong” irrelevant?


So the whole conspiracy that he is now protecting himself for making a prediction he now realizes is wrong is disproved by the fact that he never corrected himself and what he said remains consistent with his original model. If you read the paper he published he demonstrates widely different estimates of mortality IF mitigation and suppression are enacted.

That’s why the paper is titled:

“Impact of non-pharmaceutical interventions to reduce Covid-19 mortality and Healthcare demand”

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/im...-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf

If you look down in the paper to the tables detailing it, you can see his estimate of deaths with aggressive mitigation and suppression strategies vary from ~5,000 on the low end to 48K on the high end depending on a few variables. Namely, R0 (effectively how contagious it is as measured by the number of new people infected for each person with the disease as I understand it) and what he calls “on trigger” which is how long authorities wait to enact strategies as measured by number of new cases per week. In the paper he admits how impractical it would be to shut everything down completely for extended periods of time and offers an alternative of cycling measures on and off while monitoring the level of disease burden in the population closely until we can get proven treatments and ultimately a vaccine.

It sounds juicy that he changed his mind and everything we’re doing is stupid and life can just go back to normal. There’s arguments to be made but Neil Ferguson walking back his estimate just doesn’t have any evidence behind it other than sounding enticing.

It isnt a conspiracy. It is self preservation. If he was wrong he could never admit that. Few people on this earth could muster the strength to admit that mistake.
 
It isnt a conspiracy. It is self preservation. If he was wrong he could never admit that. Few people on this earth could muster the strength to admit that mistake.
You're trying to argue with a person that believes the economy would be in the same mess it is now if no measures had been taken. Brains aren't a strong suit there.
 
Did either of you read the study?

It isnt a conspiracy. It is self preservation. If he was wrong he could never admit that. Few people on this earth could muster the strength to admit that mistake.
You're trying to argue with a person that believes the economy would be in the same mess it is now if no measures had been taken. Brains aren't a strong suit there.
 
Doesn’t the fact that he never walked back his previous estimate make the rest “degree of badness of being wrong” irrelevant?


So the whole conspiracy that he is now protecting himself for making a prediction he now realizes is wrong is disproved by the fact that he never corrected himself and what he said remains consistent with his original model. If you read the paper he published he demonstrates widely different estimates of mortality IF mitigation and suppression are enacted.

That’s why the paper is titled:

“Impact of non-pharmaceutical interventions to reduce Covid-19 mortality and Healthcare demand”

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/im...-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf

If you look down in the paper to the tables detailing it, you can see his estimate of deaths with aggressive mitigation and suppression strategies vary from ~5,000 on the low end to 48K on the high end depending on a few variables. Namely, R0 (effectively how contagious it is as measured by the number of new people infected for each person with the disease as I understand it) and what he calls “on trigger” which is how long authorities wait to enact strategies as measured by number of new cases per week. In the paper he admits how impractical it would be to shut everything down completely for extended periods of time and offers an alternative of cycling measures on and off while monitoring the level of disease burden in the population closely until we can get proven treatments and ultimately a vaccine.

It sounds juicy that he changed his mind and everything we’re doing is stupid and life can just go back to normal. There’s arguments to be made but Neil Ferguson walking back his estimate just doesn’t have any evidence behind it other than sounding enticing.

No freaking conspiracy. He made a prediction and realizes 2.2 million and 550k was wrong when after two days of lockdown he then lowers to 20k. That isn’t just because of a lockdown that just now started. Use some dang common sense. Try some reason and positivity
 
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Doesn’t the fact that he never walked back his previous estimate make the rest “degree of badness of being wrong” irrelevant?


So the whole conspiracy that he is now protecting himself for making a prediction he now realizes is wrong is disproved by the fact that he never corrected himself and what he said remains consistent with his original model. If you read the paper he published he demonstrates widely different estimates of mortality IF mitigation and suppression are enacted.

That’s why the paper is titled:

“Impact of non-pharmaceutical interventions to reduce Covid-19 mortality and Healthcare demand”

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/im...-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf

If you look down in the paper to the tables detailing it, you can see his estimate of deaths with aggressive mitigation and suppression strategies vary from ~5,000 on the low end to 48K on the high end depending on a few variables. Namely, R0 (effectively how contagious it is as measured by the number of new people infected for each person with the disease as I understand it) and what he calls “on trigger” which is how long authorities wait to enact strategies as measured by number of new cases per week. In the paper he admits how impractical it would be to shut everything down completely for extended periods of time and offers an alternative of cycling measures on and off while monitoring the level of disease burden in the population closely until we can get proven treatments and ultimately a vaccine.

It sounds juicy that he changed his mind and everything we’re doing is stupid and life can just go back to normal. There’s arguments to be made but Neil Ferguson walking back his estimate just doesn’t have any evidence behind it other than sounding enticing.
ALSO I NEVER SAID NOR IMPLIED TO DO NOTHING AND BE NORMAL TOMORROW. But I do believe before end of May we should be. I’m done with you in this discussion
 
SIAP but this is an interesting study. Projects nationally and on a state level. Predicts infected, deaths, and hospital resources required and available. Predicts peak. Nationally it predicts mid April peak for the country and a slight later peak for Tennessee.

COVID-19 US state-by-state projections

Thanks. Very interesting. But where are the state by state projections in the article? I couldn’t find them.
 
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