Democratic Socialism

#2
#2
newyorkvol said:
What is Democratic Socialism? - Democratic Socialists of America (DSA)

I thought it would be nice to have a discussion on just the pros and cons of democratic socialism.
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I read the article and it sounds a whole lot like regular socialism propaganda anytime they are trying to get it in power over capitalism. Sounds good to the ear , looks good on paper with a few lies here and there about being able to make it work , but it still doesn’t pass the sniff test . It’s just socialism .
 
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#3
#3
Democratic socialists believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically—to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few. To achieve a more just society, many structures of our government and economy must be radically transformed through greater economic and social democracy so that ordinary Americans can participate in the many decisions that affect our lives.
Democracy and socialism go hand in hand. All over the world, wherever the idea of democracy has taken root, the vision of socialism has taken root as well—everywhere but in the United States. Because of this, many false ideas about socialism have developed in the US.
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I have nothing but negatives. Didnt follow up on all their different FAQs.

I would be interested to see a supporter actually use info here as to why some of these things are positive.

1. There is no reason to believe the democratically doing something makes it in any way shape or form better than any alternate. It's literally a beauty/popularity contest. Scott Haskins may be the post popular guy at school, doesnt mean he should be making decisions.
2. This argues about making profit for a few, is bad. But doesnt cover what happens when they lose money. An individual making money is bad, but losing money is ok? They take on risk. Applied to the public realm it doesnt work that. The losses dont get covered, see our ballooning debt on all levels of the government.
3. It also ignores the history of socialism keeping most people poor while making even fewer incredibly rich. It does so by removing the middle class and those too wealthy to actually lose out. Socialism only rewards the two extremes. The middle gets cut out in order to simplify the system.
4. I love the continued argument of " all other socialisms were fake socialisms, real socialism will work". Its a circular argument that offers no support as too why this type is fundamentally different. *hint, the popularity of the socialism doesnt make a difference. Because once people have conceded power it's impossible to get it back, so it's impossible to control the socialism you get.
 
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#4
#4
"Why are there no models of democratic socialism?
Although no country has fully instituted democratic socialism, the socialist parties and labor movements of other countries have won many victories for their people."

Oh great... America can be Bernie's guinea pig.

o_O
 
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#5
#5
Let's start with this first one:

Doesn’t socialism mean that the government will own and run everything?
Democratic socialists do not want to create an all-powerful government bureaucracy. But we do not want big corporate bureaucracies to control our society either. Rather, we believe that social and economic decisions should be made by those whom they most affect.

Today, corporate executives who answer only to themselves and a few wealthy stockholders make basic economic decisions affecting millions of people. Resources are used to make money for capitalists rather than to meet human needs. We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them.

Social ownership could take many forms, such as worker-owned cooperatives or publicly owned enterprises managed by workers and consumer representatives. Democratic socialists favor as much decentralization as possible. While the large concentrations of capital in industries such as energy and steel may necessitate some form of state ownership, many consumer-goods industries might be best run as cooperatives.

Democratic socialists have long rejected the belief that the whole economy should be centrally planned. While we believe that democratic planning can shape major social investments like mass transit, housing, and energy, market mechanisms are needed to determine the demand for many consumer goods.


1. Corporations are answerable via the market mechanism. The answer above completely ignores the power of customer choice in holding corporations accountable. Likewise capitalism does not preclude employee ownership of businesses.

2. Favor as much decentralization as possible? Federal control of schools and school choice? Federal control of health insurance and health care? Holy crap who are they kidding?

3. Rejected central planning? Again when you begin with a premise that government can pick winners and losers you are drinking at the trough of central planning.

IOW - they are not being honest about what they are pedaling.
 
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#8
#8
The website lost me in the opening paragraph (bold by me).
Democratic socialists believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically—to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few. To achieve a more just society, many structures of our government and economy must be radically transformed through greater economic and social democracy so that ordinary Americans can participate in the many decisions that affect our lives.

Those two sentences lost me because what can be better at meeting the needs of society than a free market. Nothing is quicker to meet the needs of people than capitalism. I look around my office of all the things I use daily, from the light bulb and electricity to my computer and cell phone. Which of these were brought to the market because of democratic socialism?

Secondly, Americans are free to vote, protest, and speak out publicly against injustices. In some ways social injustice is actually remedied through capitalism. Ex: cotton plantation slavery ways a fading construct because of new machinery even before the Civil Way. And most important, we have freedom of movement between our united small countries or States allowing relocation to a different area which more adequately reflects our own view of social justice. How can "participation" be any more improved in the "many decisions which affect our lives" than these simple freedoms afford?
 
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#10
#10
CNN:

"Here's the exchange between Sanders and Anderson Cooper on "60 Minutes":

Cooper: Do you know how all -- how much though? I mean, do you have a price tag for -- for all of this?


Sanders: We do. I mean, you know, and -- and-- the price tag is -- it will be substantially less than letting the current system go. I think it's about $30 trillion.

Cooper: That's just for "Medicare for All," you're talking about?
https://www.volnation.com/forum/javascript:void(0)
Sanders: That's just "Medicare for All," yes.

Cooper: Do you have -- a price tag for all of these things?

Sanders: No, I don't. We try to -- no, you mentioned making public colleges and universities tuition free and canceling all student debt, that's correct. That's what I want to do. We pay for that through a modest tax on Wall Street speculation.

Cooper: But you say you don't know what the total price is, but you know how it's gonna be paid for. How do you know it's gonna be paid for if you don't know how much the price is?

Sanders: Well, I can't -- you know, I can't rattle off to you every nickel and every dime. But we have accounted for -- you -- you talked about "Medicare for All." We have options out there that will pay for it.

o_O
 
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#11
#11
MontyPython said:
CNN:

"Here's the exchange between Sanders and Anderson Cooper on "60 Minutes":

Cooper: Do you know how all -- how much though? I mean, do you have a price tag for -- for all of this?


Sanders: We do. I mean, you know, and -- and-- the price tag is -- it will be substantially less than letting the current system go. I think it's about $30 trillion.

Cooper: That's just for "Medicare for All," you're talking about?
Sanders: That's just "Medicare for All," yes.

Cooper: Do you have -- a price tag for all of these things?

Sanders: No, I don't. We try to -- no, you mentioned making public colleges and universities tuition free and canceling all student debt, that's correct. That's what I want to do. We pay for that through a modest tax on Wall Street speculation.

Cooper: But you say you don't know what the total price is, but you know how it's gonna be paid for. How do you know it's gonna be paid for if you don't know how much the price is?

Sanders: Well, I can't -- you know, I can't rattle off to you every nickel and every dime. But we have accounted for -- you -- you talked about "Medicare for All." We have options out there that will pay for it.

o_O
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Luther, yourselves and others said a rock or ham sandwich over Trump. Well?
 
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#12
#12
I like how they try to downplay the communism aspect on their web page.

Compare and contrast such articles as this where they cite the 1917 October revolution as a means of effecting so called "democratic" socialism.

Bernie Sanders is just the beginning of an American leftward turn

Democratic socialism is just one way of saying "the voters brought communism upon themselves."
 
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#13
#13
Rocky_Top_Vol13 said:
Its simple. In a perfect Utopian society, socialism would work work well. However, NO ONE lives in a perfect Utopian society and implementing this will turn the US into Venezuela 2.0 in 10 to 12 years.
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In a Utopian society as small as two people there will be one person who wants to do better, be more comfortable, be more efficient, etc than the other. Democratic socialism does nothing to alter the human nature to be more than his neighbor.
 
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#14
#14
MontyPython said:
CNN:

"Here's the exchange between Sanders and Anderson Cooper on "60 Minutes":

Cooper: Do you know how all -- how much though? I mean, do you have a price tag for -- for all of this?


Sanders: We do. I mean, you know, and -- and-- the price tag is -- it will be substantially less than letting the current system go. I think it's about $30 trillion.

Cooper: That's just for "Medicare for All," you're talking about?
Sanders: That's just "Medicare for All," yes.

Cooper: Do you have -- a price tag for all of these things?

Sanders: No, I don't. We try to -- no, you mentioned making public colleges and universities tuition free and canceling all student debt, that's correct. That's what I want to do. We pay for that through a modest tax on Wall Street speculation.

Cooper: But you say you don't know what the total price is, but you know how it's gonna be paid for. How do you know it's gonna be paid for if you don't know how much the price is?

Sanders: Well, I can't -- you know, I can't rattle off to you every nickel and every dime. But we have accounted for -- you -- you talked about "Medicare for All." We have options out there that will pay for it.

o_O
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Bernie. The clown of communism.
 
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#15
#15
McDad said:
In a Utopian society as small as two people there will be one person who wants to do better, be more comfortable, be more efficient, etc than the other. Democratic socialism does nothing to alter the human nature to be more than his neighbor.
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Eggsactly! In my small utopian society I call her house my wife has more space, is more comfortable and controls the money. I'm told that I'm lucky to have one cushion on the couch, 18" of bed, a chair at the dinner table and permission to use 1 bathroom.
 
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#16
#16
hog88 said:
Eggsactly! In my small utopian society I call her house my wife has more space, is more comfortable and controls the money. I'm told that I'm lucky to have one cushion on the couch, 18" of bed, a chair at the dinner table and permission to use 1 bathroom.
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Amen. Maybe that's why you and I aren't bothered by capitalism? Because we live in a dictatorship at home.
 
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#18
#18
Sea Ray said:
Bernie says that he's not a Communist but he's more like a Scandinavian socialist. OK. It's time our media starts challenging him on that. For example in Sweden they tax you 70% for everything you make over $98K:

View attachment 263110

Sweden Has a 70% Tax Rate and It’s Just Fine

Let's see him defend that
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Scandanavian countries aren't socialist

Sorry Bernie Bros But Nordic Countries Are Not Socialist

"What we find, however, is the Nordic countries rank quite high on this index of economic freedom. In fact, while Hong Kong and Singapore top the list and the U.S. ranks 12th, we can find the Nordic countries in quite respectable rankings. Denmark ranks 15, Finland 17, Norway 25, and Sweden 27. In terms of numerical scores, Sweden is only 5% lower than the U.S. For further comparison, South Korea and Japan, both considered fairly pro-free market, rank 32 and 39, respectively."
 
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#19
#19
theFallGuy said:
Scandanavian countries aren't socialist

Sorry Bernie Bros But Nordic Countries Are Not Socialist

"What we find, however, is the Nordic countries rank quite high on this index of economic freedom. In fact, while Hong Kong and Singapore top the list and the U.S. ranks 12th, we can find the Nordic countries in quite respectable rankings. Denmark ranks 15, Finland 17, Norway 25, and Sweden 27. In terms of numerical scores, Sweden is only 5% lower than the U.S. For further comparison, South Korea and Japan, both considered fairly pro-free market, rank 32 and 39, respectively."
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Call it what you want. It's Bernie defining himself as Socialist. Bernie points to Scandinavia as an example of what he wants for America. Fine. Let's see him defend Sweden.
 
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#20
#20
Orangeburst said:
Luther, yourselves and others said a rock or ham sandwich over Trump. Well?
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I'll not be wavering from the "anybody but Trump" position, unless someone more horrendously despicable than Trump were to win the democratic nomination......and with Epstein being dead and Don Jr. not wishing to challenge his father that's an impossibility.
 
#21
#21
luthervol said:
I'll not be wavering from the "anybody but Trump" position, unless someone more horrendously despicable than Trump were to win the democratic nomination......and with Epstein being dead and Don Jr. not wishing to challenge his father that's an impossibility.
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That's every single person from your party
 
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#22
#22
luthervol said:
I'll not be wavering from the "anybody but Trump" position, unless someone more horrendously despicable than Trump were to win the democratic nomination......and with Epstein being dead and Don Jr. not wishing to challenge his father that's an impossibility.
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No doubt about you comrade. I was just using you as a reference point.
 
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#24
#24
hog88 said:
Eggsactly! In my small utopian society I call her house my wife has more space, is more comfortable and controls the money. I'm told that I'm lucky to have one cushion on the couch, 18" of bed, a chair at the dinner table and permission to use 1 bathroom.
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While I might be inclined to like this post, I fear that my wife might see an unattended phone at which point I might lose the 18" of bed too.
 
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#25
#25
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