The Impeachment Thread

#28,127
#28,127
I've been listening to bits and pieces in the car today. It appears that the GOP has indeed settled on the International Crime Stoppers theory. I realize there is a certain appeal to that defense because it allows you to criticize Biden and his son, but I still think it is a mistake because by and large I don't think the American public views Biden as particularly corrupt. A bit of a goofball and prone to gaffes maybe, but not as one trading on his power for money. I still think the easier sell, and the true sentiment among Trump's base, is that what Trump did was wrong but not so wrong as to warrant impeachment in the scheme of things.
 
#28,128
#28,128
lawgator1 said:
I've been listening to bits and pieces in the car today. It appears that the GOP has indeed settled on the International Crime Stoppers theory. I realize there is a certain appeal to that defense because it allows you to criticize Biden and his son, but I still think it is a mistake because by and large I don't think the American public views Biden as particularly corrupt. A bit of a goofball and prone to gaffes maybe, but not as one trading on his power for money. I still think the easier sell, and the true sentiment among Trump's base, is that what Trump did was wrong but not so wrong as to warrant impeachment in the scheme of things.
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You haven’t listened to much if this is the case, but hey, there goes an ambulance.
 
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#28,129
#28,129
lawgator1 said:
I've been listening to bits and pieces in the car today. It appears that the GOP has indeed settled on the International Crime Stoppers theory. I realize there is a certain appeal to that defense because it allows you to criticize Biden and his son, but I still think it is a mistake because by and large I don't think the American public views Biden as particularly corrupt. A bit of a goofball and prone to gaffes maybe, but not as one trading on his power for money. I still think the easier sell, and the true sentiment among Trump's base, is that what Trump did was wrong but not so wrong as to warrant impeachment in the scheme of things.
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I think that fits in with what I heard yesterday in which Trump wants a drawn out process and McConnell wants a quickie.
 
#28,130
#28,130
hog88 said:
I didn't call you a name.

Explain to me how Trump has used Russia/Ukraine as "insurance policies". Every witness with direct knowledge of the situation stated that there was no demand, no quid pro quo, the closest was one that they assumed aid was being withheld until an investigation was announced. Was it borderline, yes. Trump came close to stepping over the line but in the end he didn't.
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Trying not to get into the weeds over differing views of the evidence.

I read what Luther is saying to be that the FBI should take it upon itself to investigate a candidate who is “horrendously despicable,” or whatever, for the purpose of smearing them to ensure that they don’t win.

Therefore, Trump’s situation doesn’t need all of these facts to be equivalent to what Luther was saying.

Trump absolutely asked Ukraine to open an investigation into Biden and work with Rudy. It’s in the transcript. And we may not agree on what they were, but he certainly took steps to make sure it happened.* It was intended to smear Biden, because his campaign has used the publication of these facts for exactly that purpose.

So, to me, it seems like all of the relevant elements are there with maybe some additional ones.

*- Whether it’s impeachable without those facts is a separate issue - and matter of personal opinion - so before everybody decides to pounce on that: I’m not moving the goalposts on impeachment.
 
#28,131
#28,131
luthervol said:
The biggest differences are that Trump is doing it purely for self benefit, and he is not using it as an insurance policy after the fact, he is doing it to cheat before the fact.
Trump's abuse is far worse.
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Compared to your idealistic hypothetical where the FBI would keep this power in a glass box labeled “break only in case of once every 300 year catastrophe” (sorry I know I’m butchering your catchphrases), it might be worse.

Compared to how it would work in practice, I think they’re both things that should be strenuously avoided.
 
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#28,134
#28,134
RockyTop85 said:
Trying not to get into the weeds over differing views of the evidence.

I read what Luther is saying to be that the FBI should take it upon itself to investigate a candidate who is “horrendously despicable,” or whatever, for the purpose of smearing them to ensure that they don’t win.

Therefore, Trump’s situation doesn’t need all of these facts to be equivalent to what Luther was saying.

Trump absolutely asked Ukraine to open an investigation into Biden and work with Rudy. It’s in the transcript. And we may not agree on what they were, but he certainly took steps to make sure it happened.* It was intended to smear Biden, because his campaign has used the publication of these facts for exactly that purpose.

So, to me, it seems like all of the relevant elements are there with maybe some additional ones.

*- Whether it’s impeachable without those facts is a separate issue - and matter of personal opinion - so before everybody decides to pounce on that: I’m not moving the goalposts on impeachment.
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I’m in firmly in the camp that both parties are right and wrong. Meaning....trump asked for investigation which he probably shouldn’t have, but that there is more that the democrats know that they don’t want unearthed, hence the strange impeachment process.

However, I think how I would defend this, if I was a lawyer, is that from the transcript, it appears as though trump was asking for an investigation into 2016 meddling and Hunters association with Burisma. Since aid is tied to continued Ukrainian anti corruption efforts, it could be justified to ask about 2016 meddling. It doesn’t appear that he is specifically asking to investigate Biden as a 2020 candidate, but certainly that’s where this crosses the line.
 
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#28,137
#28,137
MontyPython said:
Lev Parnas Concealed A $1 Million Payment From Russia, Prosecutors Say
Sanjana Karanth
December 11, 2019, 10:02 PM EST

Lev Parnas, an associate of Rudy Giuliani, received a $1 million payment from Russia a month before he was charged with conspiring to funnel foreign money into Republican campaigns in the United States, federal prosecutors said Wednesday.

# # #

Russia pays Parnas. Parnas pays Giuliani. Giuliani does Trump's dirty work.

All roads lead back to Putin.

At what point do Trumpsters admit that Trump is beholded to Russia?
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He did lie about it from what i understand, after he was charged and bonded out with an ankle bracelet, they found out about it. Bond revoked!! All kinda people getting burnt over the Ukraine cesspool.
 
#28,140
#28,140
volfanjustin said:
DUI not the same thing as Hunter's issues. I wish Gaetz would have asked if Guam has tipped yet
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No, what Hunter Biden was guilty of was only of consequence to himself and his own health, freedom and well-being, whereas Matt Gaetz was driving drunk and taking a chance on causing an accident which could have killed other people. So, you are right. DUI and a cocaine addiction are not the same thing at all. One of them only has consequences for one person, while the other can impact the lives of innocent people. Matt Gaetz needs to get off his holier-than-thou high horse. He has had an issue of his own.
 
#28,143
#28,143
BowlBrother85 said:
No, what Hunter Biden was guilty of was only of consequence to himself and his own health, freedom and well-being, whereas Matt Gaetz was driving drunk and taking a chance on causing an accident which could have killed other people. So, you are right. DUI and a cocaine addiction are not the same thing at all. One of them only has consequences for one person, while the other can impact the lives of innocent people. Matt Gaetz needs to get off his holier-than-thou high horse. He has had an issue of his own.
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like your boy robert francis?
 
#28,144
#28,144
volinbham said:
see bold - if you want to complain about distortion then check yourself.

That is NOT what Horowitz found. He claims the initial bar to investigate was passed. He clearly indicates that the FISA process was abused. There's a world of distance between saying there's enough to open an investigation and claiming there's enough to warrant surveillance via FISA.
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Hey where have you been hiding out lately? Haven’t seen you post here in quite a while
 
#28,145
#28,145
My three year old genderfluid toddler just walked into the room with tears in xir eyes and asked me "Daddy, how can Trump be considered a heterosexual male when he is giving Joe Biden a vigorous non-stop butt-thrusting in the polls?"


TELL ME HOW I'M SUPPOSED TO ANSWER THAT? WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THIS COUNTRY?
 
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#28,146
#28,146
newyorkvol said:
I’m in firmly in the camp that both parties are right and wrong. Meaning....trump asked for investigation which he probably shouldn’t have, but that there is more that the democrats know that they don’t want unearthed, hence the strange impeachment process.

However, I think how I would defend this, if I was a lawyer, is that from the transcript, it appears as though trump was asking for an investigation into 2016 meddling and Hunters association with Burisma. Since aid is tied to continued Ukrainian anti corruption efforts, it could be justified to ask about 2016 meddling. It doesn’t appear that he is specifically asking to investigate Biden as a 2020 candidate, but certainly that’s where this crosses the line.
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I see what you’re saying but:

The investigations were beneficial to Trump.
There was an effort to leverage investigations.
The effort was advanced by Giuliani.
Giuliani admits he wanted Joe investigated.
Trump tells Sondland to talk to Giuliani.
Giuliani enlisted Sondland to help.
Pretty sure Sondland admits he delivered QPQ regarding WH visit.
WH visit can only be held up by Trump or Mulvaney.
The aid gets held up.
Trump or Mulvaney has to order the aid held up.
Sondland believes the aid was withheld to leverage investigations.
Trump asks Zelensky for the investigations.
Trump tells Zelensky to talk to Rudy.
Sondland tells Ukraine no investigations likely = no aid.

Goldman said it the other day: every day, Juries are told to use their common sense to draw inferences. He’s right. It’s in the TN pattern jury instructions. It’s in the federal jury instructions.

You have to suspend common sense to believe that Trump wasn’t elbow deep in this.
 
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#28,147
#28,147
Catbone said:
My three year old genderfluid toddler just walked into the room with tears in xir eyes and asked me "Daddy, how can Trump be considered a heterosexual male when he is giving Joe Biden a vigorous non-stop butt-thrusting in the polls?"


TELL ME HOW I'M SUPPOSED TO ANSWER THAT? WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THIS COUNTRY?
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I would tell her that she needs to learn how to read the polls... and I would tell her dad that he is even worse at trolling in the politics forum than in the football and recruiting forums, where he is the most negative and anti-Tennessee poster on VN (and that is no small feat.).
 
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#28,148
#28,148
luthervol said:
About time.
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I already knew this . What I wasn’t prepared for was the depths at which you were prepared to go to see it happen . I never thought you’d be ok with the idea of an extremely well funded government law enforcement agency holding out an “ insurance policy “ to keep a duly elected president from taking office . That’s some J. Edgar stuff right there . I would naturally assume ( I know what that gets me ) that a highly educated person such as yourself would have read enough world history to understand just how bad of a ideology that is when the IC’s , law enforcement and all their powers become political and weaponized like that .
 
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#28,149
#28,149
RockyTop85 said:
Trying not to get into the weeds over differing views of the evidence.

I read what Luther is saying to be that the FBI should take it upon itself to investigate a candidate who is “horrendously despicable,” or whatever, for the purpose of smearing them to ensure that they don’t win.
Click to expand...
I believe they should do a thorough investigation of every candidate for President who has not already undergone extensive background checks (including financial records). I do not believe they should use that information to smear the candidate, but I certainly believe the public has a right and need to know if they are being lied to and are on the cusp of electing someone who is a danger to the country. Trump was right on the borderline (in that gray area) in the minds of the IC. They all hoped and prayed that the public would be smart enough to reject Trump, but having information that could help remove him if necessary was prudent.
 
#28,150
#28,150
RockyTop85 said:
I see what you’re saying but:

The investigations were beneficial to Trump.
There was an effort to leverage investigations.
The effort was advanced by Giuliani.
Giuliani admits he wanted Joe investigated.
Trump tells Sondland to talk to Giuliani.
Giuliani enlisted Sondland to help.
Pretty sure Sondland admits he delivered QPQ regarding WH visit.
WH visit can only be held up by Trump or Mulvaney.
The aid gets held up.
Trump or Mulvaney has to order the aid held up.
Sondland believes the aid was withheld to leverage investigations.
Trump asks Zelensky for the investigations.
Trump tells Zelensky to talk to Rudy.
Sondland tells Ukraine no investigations likely = no aid.

Goldman said it the other day: every day, Juries are told to use their common sense to draw inferences. He’s right. It’s in the TN pattern jury instructions. It’s in the federal jury instructions.

You have to suspend common sense to believe that Trump wasn’t elbow deep in this.
Click to expand...

That’s exactly my point. You have to suspend common sense to believe he wasn’t involved. And separate but equally you have to suspend common sense to believe trump campaign investigation wasn’t politically motivated per IG report.

Both sides selectively bury their head to the obvious. All these shenanigans are only revealing the top of the corrupt iceberg that is our political class.
 
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