Recruiting Forum Football Talk [RIP 9.3.2019]

[HankHill]

If it was partially due to older guys throwing in the towel, I think you would have seen more fat trimmed from the roster in the offseason. Also, it doesn’t make sense to throw in the towel for the last couple of games after a couple of big wins in the weeks prior. I think that’s mostly fan fiction.

100% agree. That’s a lazy narrative

 

[Sleegro]

Through the Kentucky game you could see what these coaches and players could potentially be. The decline was mostly from the non existent s&c from the previous staff and Pruitt trying to power through it during the season. They ran out of gas. That should be less of an issue this season as there have already been tremendous strides made in a year and a half training with fitz. Throw in upgrades to the staff and experience coming back and I expect a good season.

 

[MoCo_Vol]

We did lose next to nothing but of what? Average players in my opinion. Average players are returning and they may take a step forward, but still be one or two steps behind most of our competition.

I think this is a poor take, average production yes...but average players? Yet to be determined. I mean look at what Justin Coleman did after his career at UT...what we want to see from Pruitt that we didn't see from Butch or Dooley is getting the production while they are still here.

We don't want to see players go undrafted then blow up in the NFL because of poor coaching while here.

 

[Devo182]

I got a question also..
When talking lack of development, are you guys writing off the majority of those players or do you believe most can become productive?

Talking the majority, not case by case.

Probably depends on the year. For instance our seniors last year were too far down the road. They had accumulated too many injuries from the previous s&c program and had too little time to correct all the bad habits and develop.

Current seniors have more of a chance to develop and shine. Current juniors have the most hope to still develop...but that was also just not a very good class.

 

[ChismsHeadband]

Regarding talent, particularly in the context of Mizzou/Vandy comparisons...

There are two types of talent, and championship-caliber teams have both. Raw talent (see: 247 recruiting rankings) and developed talent (what Mizzou/Vandy are doing).

Dooley was better at development, at least on offense. He had good defensive coaches but no one wanted to work for him. Wilcox was a rising star when he was brought on in 2010, Lance Thompson has always been productive at the minimum, and Ansley got a good start here. It was well known once Dooley was ousted that he was just a pain in the ass to work for.

Butch was hoisted up by Dobbs, Kamara, and Barnett. Plain and simple. It took near-generational raw talent to will the 2015 and 2016 teams to 9 wins per. I guess he was just used to the MAC? But if Butch had spent half as much time dictating workouts as he did trying to come up with new motivational phrases, who knows where we'd be right now.

A second point, that I'm not sure how shared it is:

There's not a huge difference between most 3* players and 4* players. There's not a huge difference between 4* players and 5* players. BUT there is a huge difference in 3*s and 5*s (I'm not blind).

We're seeing Mizzou and Vandy develop their 3*s into 4*s, and it's beat our 3*/4*s with minimal S&C pretty handily. Alabama has developed their 4*s and 5*s into basically 6*s, which is the god tier that only Ohio State, Georgia, and Clemson are starting to achieve.

 

[chargervol]

I thought it was the players complaining about other players only giving half the effort.

Pruitt also said something but took responsibility. Everything seems like it's either-or on here.

Maybe some weren't bought in the way they needed to be. But maybe Pruitt doesn't believe that makes them a lost cause. Give them an ultimatum and a chance to prove it. Different circumstances but Jennings got his.
100% speculation of course.

 

[Cosmo Kramer]

We weren't beating Missouri with Lock at QB

 

[chargervol]

Probably depends on the year. For instance our seniors last year were too far down the road. They had accumulated too many injuries from the previous s&c program and had too little time to correct all the bad habits and develop.

Current seniors have more of a chance to develop and shine. Current juniors have the most hope to still develop...but that was also just not a very good class.

Agree and was talking this year. Never thought he could fix 4 yr guys in one off season, last yr.

 

[Devo182]

We are not average at LB... not average at CB.
Average at RB is above average in every other conference... I don’t think we are average at QB (this year) don’t @ me.

We also could see improvement at the S postion as well as the O-line this year...

I understand it’s the popular thing to do to doom and gloom UT but the truth is we will surprise a lot of people this year (im not just saying this as a hopeful fan... I have some football knowledge or atleast friends that do and people that know how this staff operates... no way we don’t get better this year.

We are (have been) way below average at lb. We really have to turn the corner there this year or it could be ugly with our very limited dl situation.

I have a hard time assessing RBs. Clearly not great at blocking. Running...I like to think we have some talent, but the OL really hasn't given them ample opportunities when we've led all of FBS in Stuff Rate 2 straight years. Feel bad for our RBs. If Trey returns and can play guard...opportunities will come.

 

[AngryButchJones]

While we're on the topic of Butch vs. Pruitt in recruiting and how long of a rebuild UT faces, saw this article this morning and thought it was interesting. Pruitt is having a lot more success in Georgia than Butch ever did, and he's recruiting at a better Blue Chip Ratio clip, too.
Analyzing the Vols' Recruiting Strategy Under Pruitt | Rocky Top Insider

 

[LA Vol]

Slight semantic, "they" didn't directly influence my opinion but them influencing the recruits opinions, did. The recruits hold the direct influence on me, not the media.

Totally get where you're coming from. We've all seen how it influences the recruits. Most don't want to be patient-- they want to win and they need to believe Pruitt is going to be doing a lot of that by the time they get on campus. Of course, nobody knows where the program will be in a year, so recruiting hinges on who's most convincing.

When all the other coaches tell recruits UT is facing a long rebuild, it creates doubt. The media reinforces it. And when local sports guys, UT bloggers and fan sites seem to validate it, doubt grows. Recruits delay committing and want to see results. That's why recruiting is slow and peer-recruiting has been stymied. The coaches are having to fight off all the noise, and they don't have a lot of ammunition right now. So while May has been slow and June may be more of the same, getting some of these recruits to wait and not give in to the pressure to commit elsewhere is a win.

 

[Devo182]

We weren't beating Missouri with Lock at QB

Or scoring 17 points. Their whole team whipped us both years imo. Of course we had little chance with Chryst in throwing picks last year.

 

[chargervol]

Totally get where you're coming from. We've all seen how it influences the recruits. Most don't want to be patient-- they want to win and they need to believe Pruitt is going to be doing a lot of that by the time they get on campus. Of course, nobody knows where the program will be in a year, so recruiting hinges on who's most convincing.

When all the other coaches tell recruits UT is facing a long rebuild, it creates doubt. The media reinforces it. And when local sports guys, UT bloggers and fan sites seem to validate it, doubt grows. Recruits delay committing and want to see results. That's why recruiting is slow and peer-recruiting has been stymied. The coaches are having to fight off all the noise, and they don't have a lot of ammunition right now. So while May has been slow and June may be more of the same, getting some of these recruits to wait and not give in to the pressure to commit elsewhere is a win.

Absolutely agree on all, especially a win if the recruits keep an open mind.

Also figured you understood why I pointed out the semantics difference. Just didn't want to give the impression that the media could tell me what to think.
But once the recruits listen, the perception has real world implications. Just have to prove them wrong on the field.

 

[MoCo_Vol]

I feel like we're one of the few teams in the SEC East that's not "resetting" this season.

Does it mean we'll win more than we should? I don't know...hope so

But UK losing Snell who accounted for about 33% of their total Yards from Scrimmage also lost 4 of their top 5 WRs as Conrad, Bouvier, Baker & Snell were all 2-5th in receptions & yards. Defensively they lose 4 of their top 5 in total tackles in Allen, West, Edwards, and Jones all leaving. They are obviously going to have a down year from 10 wins, but it could be even rougher than just slipping to 7 or 8 wins.

Vandy & Missouri both lose 4 year starters at QB

Georgia lost their OC, Florida lost almost all their starters on OL, USC lost top WR and TE as well as a lot on defense.

I'm not sun-shining pumping, but I do think we'll be more competitive overall this season for a host of reasons. Competition losing some talent being one of them. I don't think Georgia or USC have much drop off since both return their QBs and key pieces elsewhere.

 

[jakez4ut]

I got a question also..
When talking lack of development, are you guys writing off the majority of those players or do you believe most can become productive?

Talking the majority, not case by case.

this is the biggest question we have right now in terms of on field success. cause if we're going to do anything relatively soon, it's going to have be because there's a better than average # of those kids that turn in to players for us.

the problem is that there's just not but a couple kids left out of that 15 class and the 16 and 17 classes weren't world beaters. but yeah, you need guys from both of those classes to be better than either they have been, or than we thought they could be.

am i writing them off? no. but there's a lot of names in both of those classes that have yet to figure it out so to speak. may not be their fault. it's not like Pruit and Butch recruited the same type of players.....lotta tweeners that don't necessarly fit where they maybe were supposed to when they got here.

i see all those types of guys getting looks at 2 or 3 different positions....trying to figure out if they can help us somewhere on the roster....and some still haven't found a landing spot.....i mean, you go look at some of those names and there's guys in there that we thought would be pretty significant contributors....and you never hear about them.

from the 16 class...you have to expect guys like JG, Warrior, Callaway, Bituli to be not only prodctuve, but difference makers. the rest of that class? mixed results at best.
17 class...it basically boils down to Chandler, espcially if Trey Smith can't play. past that, there's a who's who of guys that COULD be more than they've been.....Maleik Gray, Will Ingnot, Jordon Murphy, Lebruzza, Shamburger....and several others...

anyway, yeah, it's a great question....and we shouldn't write them off, but if it doesn't happen soon, not sure that it does for some of them.

 

[MoCo_Vol]

I'll say this now though, if Trey plays and stays playing all season if Ty is healthy they'll both end up drafted next off-season.


Expect also to see Banks emerge at RB with YAC & Chaney both being very productive coaches for that position. Next year is when you'll see huge returns on the OL recruiting I think. Lampley is going to be a starting guard before it's all said and done. And he's smart enough to take advantage of the RS this year if he can use it.

Kid's dad has him ready from a technique standpoint already and a full season to learn the scheme and get stronger/bigger he's going to be a sleeper to be another high draft pick off this OL class imo.

 

[butchna]

What’s considerable progress?

Additionally, he’s just now getting his first recruiting class on campus. How will we know if he’s the guy this year?

Took Barnes 3 years to fix the b-ball program and he’s a top 7 coach in CBB

We’ll see PROGRESS in play, performance and record (most importantly the first two)...or he’s not the guy.

 

[KokoBVol]

Are we all in consensus that the BYU game is a certain W? I just want to know if I can lock that one up in the W column. IMO, 4-0 OOC is necessary this year, but I am not convinced that it's greater than like 60/40 for the good guys yet...please convince me

No. I’m the opposite of you. I’m like 60/40 BYU.

 

[butchna]

Ubben’s statement here should be a wake up call to the 8+ win crowd.

Ubben’s a good writer. He hasn’t earned prophet status.

 

[ChismsHeadband]

I feel like we're one of the few teams in the SEC East that's not "resetting" this season.

Does it mean we'll win more than we should? I don't know...hope so

But UK losing Snell who accounted for about 33% of their total Yards from Scrimmage also lost 4 of their top 5 WRs as Conrad, Bouvier, Baker & Snell were all 2-5th in receptions & yards. Defensively they lose 4 of their top 5 in total tackles in Allen, West, Edwards, and Jones all leaving. They are obviously going to have a down year from 10 wins, but it could be even rougher than just slipping to 7 or 8 wins.

Vandy & Missouri both lose 4 year starters at QB

Georgia lost their OC, Florida lost almost all their starters on OL, USC lost top WR and TE as well as a lot on defense.

I'm not sun-shining pumping, but I do think we'll be more competitive overall this season for a host of reasons. Competition losing some talent being one of them. I don't think Georgia or USC have much drop off since both return their QBs and key pieces elsewhere.

I agree with your Kentucky and Vandy takes.

Kentucky hit the perfect storm to win 10-- long developed talent that maxed out, graduated, and went pro. For Vandy, Shurmur was a legit starter, and they don't have an heir-apparent at a position that will dictate the entire offense.

But everything else is just cyclical.

Mizzou has Kelly Bryant (I know, a one-year rental), but they've also got TCU's QB transfer Shawn Robinson already on campus and redshirting a year. Mizzou will still only return 54% of Offensive production, which amounts to the QB, RB2 and WR1. Defensively, they lose a starter from each level of the secondary, but have the depth to reload.

Powers schools will always lose coordinators. It may have been a better point to check the seemingly needless attrition they had with all their underclassmen who declared (too) early. Florida's OL will be their achilles heel, but again, seems more cyclical to me than anything. Same with USCjr's losses.

 

[Big Gucci Sosa]

 

[LA Vol]

So many unknowns-- and while many take that as a negative, it could be the opposite. How high is the ceiling for some of the guys who haven't performed at the level expected? How quickly can the new guys get game-ready? How much will the improved team chemistry and conditioning help? How much "want-to does this team have and will that translate into more wins or just a more competitive effort? How much more can Chaney improve this offense? How much better can JG be... and do we have a solid backup? Overall, I see more upside than downside.

 

[Ron Swanson]

 

[butchna]

Lock was great but Dooley is a good offensive mind. Especially developing passing and route concepts.

Missouri did a lot of the same things schematics wise that we did while Dooley was our HC. They just a lot better of a qb

They went from 7-6 to 8-5...both seasons 4-4 in the SEC. Would expect more from a team with a returning NFL level QB...mebbe that’s why he dropped to the second. To Dooley’s credit, they didn’t go backwards. Now let’s see what he’s really got.

 

[MoCo_Vol]

I agree with your Kentucky and Vandy takes.

Kentucky hit the perfect storm to win 10-- long developed talent that maxed out, graduated, and went pro. For Vandy, Shurmur was a legit starter, and they don't have an heir-apparent at a position that will dictate the entire offense.

But everything else is just cyclical.

Mizzou has Kelly Bryant (I know, a one-year rental), but they've also got TCU's QB transfer Shawn Robinson already on campus and redshirting a year. Mizzou will still only return 54% of Offensive production, which amounts to the QB, RB2 and WR1. Defensively, they lose a starter from each level of the secondary, but have the depth to reload.

Powers schools will always lose coordinators. It may have been a better point to check the seemingly needless attrition they had with all their underclassmen who declared (too) early. Florida's OL will be their achilles heel, but again, seems more cyclical to me than anything. Same with USCjr's losses.

Yeah, I think Bryant just used his Grad transfer to lose the starting job again...I'm not sold on him as a SEC QB, his lone season as the guy at Clemson wasn't anything to write home about.

I agree about Georgia & USC being cyclical mostly. I don't know about Florida, they have had quite an odd off-season for it to still just be May and I'm honestly not sure what to expect with the amount of new starters they'll put out.