Sylvia Hatchell reisgns

#26
#26
Old school coach vs snowflake kids.

Snowflakes win. Snowflakes win.

Telling someone they'd be "hanged from a tree by a noose" (especially given most of your players are black) isn't 'old school' unless 'old school' = being an a**hole with the expectation of not being called out for it, as has always been the case in the past.

Sorry, but you can be tough, yell at your players, expect a lot from your players without going over a line like that. You think Pat ever made a comment like that? No, and she was more demanding than Sylvia, I'm sure. Pat was 'old school'. Sylvia is just an ass if she made that comment. I don't feel sorry for her in the least. As for the snowflake comment, should the accusations be correct, that doesn't apply here. It's time for 'old school' to get over the fact that a lot of their behavior won't be tolerated anymore. Either stop doing it or get out. You don't tell black kids that they'll be hanging by a noose if they don't play better.
 
#27
#27
People change as they get older. Some appreciate life more and some become bitter. If you go the appreciate route, you embrace the young people. If you go the bitter route then younger people become something you despise. I have seen this many times happen to people I know as they age. It's going to happen and it's going to go in one route or the other. I think Hatchell went the bitter route.

That may be. A lot of dirty laundry at UNC was aired, and though their WBB program wasn't squeaky clean, it was telling that the university administration tried to deflect the sins of their men's basketball and football teams onto her program. Based on that, I think I might be on the bitter side of things myself.
 
#28
#28
Telling someone they'd be "hanged from a tree by a noose" (especially given most of your players are black) isn't 'old school' unless 'old school' = being an a**hole with the expectation of not being called out for it, as has always been the case in the past.

Sorry, but you can be tough, yell at your players, expect a lot from your players without going over a line like that. You think Pat ever made a comment like that? No, and she was more demanding than Sylvia, I'm sure. Pat was 'old school'. Sylvia is just an ass if she made that comment. I don't feel sorry for her in the least. As for the snowflake comment, should the accusations be correct, that doesn't apply here. It's time for 'old school' to get over the fact that a lot of their behavior won't be tolerated anymore. Either stop doing it or get out. You don't tell black kids that they'll be hanging by a noose if they don't play better.

I agree 100%.
I find it interesting that this report generated so many complaints about poor, poor Sylvia who was unfairly fired because of "snowflake" students whereas one could easily say that an experienced, educator should have some reasonable degree of cultural awareness -- don't use lynching imagery as a motivational tool; don't reduce indigenous cultures to a racist stereotype -- the war chant-- and let the freaking medical staff do their job in deciding when players are ready to return to action.

Hatchell was paid a lot of money to do her job and UNC should expect a high degree of professionalism in return. What she did was not "old school" but just unprofessional BS. No faculty member could get way telling students that they would be hung by a noose if their class room performance does not improve. B-ball coaches are held to the same institutional standards as academic faculty
 
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#29
#29
Telling someone they'd be "hanged from a tree by a noose" (especially given most of your players are black) isn't 'old school' unless 'old school' = being an a**hole with the expectation of not being called out for it, as has always been the case in the past.

Sorry, but you can be tough and even mean without saying stupid crap like that. I don't feel sorry for her in the least. As for the snowflake comment, should the accusations be correct, that doesn't apply here. It's time for 'old school' to get over the fact that a lot of their behavior won't be tolerated anymore. Either stop doing it or get out.

I wondered what she said or did and couldn't imagine a basketball coach being racially insensitive in 2019. Inconceivable!

I really hope she didn't say that intending to be incredibly offensive racially, but no matter her intent, there is no excuse for this one. There are some things that have happened that people, simply, must be aware of. Whether or not she meant to offend anyone, there is absolutely no chance she wasn't offensive in this context, and this one is a big one. Sad if unintended, but seriously unacceptable. Resignation makes sense.

P.S. I'm old school and I think there are a lot of "new school" behaviors that shouldn't be tolerated either, but there's no excuse here that sounds right to me other than that she has been in a cave for the last 150 years and didn't know there was a problem with threatening to hang people of color.
 
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#31
#31
Telling someone they'd be "hanged from a tree by a noose" (especially given most of your players are black) isn't 'old school' unless 'old school' = being an a**hole with the expectation of not being called out for it, as has always been the case in the past.

Sorry, but you can be tough, yell at your players, expect a lot from your players without going over a line like that. You think Pat ever made a comment like that? No, and she was more demanding than Sylvia, I'm sure. Pat was 'old school'. Sylvia is just an ass if she made that comment. I don't feel sorry for her in the least. As for the snowflake comment, should the accusations be correct, that doesn't apply here. It's time for 'old school' to get over the fact that a lot of their behavior won't be tolerated anymore. Either stop doing it or get out. You don't tell black kids that they'll be hanging by a noose if they don't play better.

Interesting. That is not something I would say, just because I never really heard the expression very much, if at all. BUT what it brought to my mine was the old west, not blacks (you know, the tombstone that reads, “sorry, we hung the wrong guy”...I’ve actually seen it). Now if I did use it, and my black players found it offensive, I would want them to come and tell me. I would tell them that was NOT my meaning or intent, and I would try...and expect to succeed, in not using it again. As I’ve posted before, intent is what really matters, but if someone finds it offensive, then find another expression. So, hard nose coach, snowflake kids, poor to no communication, out to get an unliked coach, racist? I don’t know. Investigation found something about lack of communication, forget the exact words.

The injuries to me are more concerning. Where were the medical personnel? We’ve all seen how UT handles concussions! There’s no questioning to it and NO coaching input as to playing and time frame. What is the NC policy re this; could the university be failing on proactively protecting student athletes? How on earth in this day and time, does a coach determine anything relating to concussions?

And the shoulder and tendon issues. Again, where is the medical staff? If a kid is injured are they not involved? And if so would their determination as to injury and extent not determine availability to practice/play? If neither of those apply...again, university failure; a coach should not make that determination because the coach should, by university policy, not be allowed to do so.

I remember Candace and the shoulder brace...I was there. It’s LV lore. Of course, no one made her play but herself. But...was there a medical staffer available to say “no”, if not available, should medical staff have been available???? That can start your head spinning!

I hate to judge anyone without complete data. A coach is not always right.....or wrong. Players are not always honest.....or dishonest. Agendas, spite, discrimination, covering up one’s own lacking, what are the drivers?

UT, imo, did not cover itself in honor re AJ. Of course compared to the DA in that case they looked like gold standard! What was it, 3 years and the loss of multi millionaire dollars, and he was found not guilty. Where is he now? How much did his family suffer, both emotionally as well as financially?

I guess my bottom line is we need to be careful before we jump to conclusions. It’s not seeing both sides, it’s seeing 360°.
 
#33
#33
Interesting. That is not something I would say, just because I never really heard the expression very much, if at all. BUT what it brought to my mine was the old west, not blacks (you know, the tombstone that reads, “sorry, we hung the wrong guy”...I’ve actually seen it). Now if I did use it, and my black players found it offensive, I would want them to come and tell me. I would tell them that was NOT my meaning or intent, and I would try...and expect to succeed, in not using it again. As I’ve posted before, intent is what really matters, but if someone finds it offensive, then find another expression. So, hard nose coach, snowflake kids, poor to no communication, out to get an unliked coach, racist? I don’t know. Investigation found something about lack of communication, forget the exact words.

Intent isn't really what matters when you say something as dumb as that. I mean, there's not really a lot of gray area with something like that. You're telling people -- black people -- you're going to lynch them. It was said in jest (obviously) but it's disgusting nonetheless. That's not about being a 'snowflake' or 'playing the race card'. Sylvia grew up in the south and is "of a certain age", so she should know better. If she wasn't thinking about it, then why not? She should know better. Racist? IDK. Ignorant. No doubt about it. Assuming that accusation is correct. Ignorance is NOT bliss regardless of what anyone says. And honestly I'm a bit tired of hearing about how it "used" to be acceptable and how people are snowflakes if they don't like it.
 
#35
#35
That may be. A lot of dirty laundry at UNC was aired, and though their WBB program wasn't squeaky clean, it was telling that the university administration tried to deflect the sins of their men's basketball and football teams onto her program. Based on that, I think I might be on the bitter side of things myself.
Yeah there’s a lot more to this story. If coach Hatcher said the things mentioned, she needed to go. However if unc is trying to get out from their many violations by the men’s program, and throwing her under the bus it’s too bad. They are a blue blood. Nothing will come of it because it’s unc, or Kansas, ky., etc. it’s a cesspool in men’s basketball and probably to a much less extent in woman’s.
 
#36
#36
Intent isn't really what matters when you say something as dumb as that. I mean, there's not really a lot of gray area with something like that. You're telling people -- black people -- you're going to lynch them. It was said in jest (obviously) but it's disgusting nonetheless. That's not about being a 'snowflake' or 'playing the race card'. Sylvia grew up in the south and is "of a certain age", so she should know better. If she wasn't thinking about it, then why not? She should know better. Racist? IDK. Ignorant. No doubt about it. Assuming that accusation is correct. Ignorance is NOT bliss regardless of what anyone says. And honestly I'm a bit tired of hearing about how it "used" to be acceptable and how people are snowflakes if they don't like it.

Intent is the driver. Knowledge is the determiner. We all ALL ignorant about something. Ignorance is correctable; stupidity is permanent. If one is not willing to address another’s ignorance and help them correct it, then one should not complain when confronted by said ignorance or its repercussions.

And re, “You're telling people -- black people -- you're going to lynch them.” She has white and black kids on the team, maybe Asian. Did she address the comment only to the black kids? If so, then I’ll say no quarter given. If she addressed the team as a whole...? Again, poor choice of terms, but maybe educate would be a good choice in response. Give someone a chance to see things differently and change.

I think a lot of your response got off topic and into the emotional. Understood it is a sensitive topic.

I’m probably not expressing myself well, but courtesy, kindness, consideration, understanding are good first responses. Then if change does not occur, address it by other means. She may be seriously misunderstood and just needed to see a different viewpoint; she may be a mean old hag and deserved to be thrown out on her rear. I don’t know, and I’m not judging.
 
#37
#37
I didn't go off topic at all. The general consensus when an older person does something ignorant is that the younger generation are snowflakes and they're too sensitive. That's ridiculous in this instance, and generally speaking it's mostly a cop out for people who want to act without tact and decency and not get called out for it. People need to take responsibility for their actions and words, and people who belong to minority groups are tired of taking crap. That's just the bottom line. This is common sense on her part. It isn't rocket science. Right is right and wrong is wrong. If she's too dumb to realize that then I don't know what to say.

I understand what you're saying but you're seem to be coming from a place of naivety. You make it sound like if she has two white kids on the team and she was addressing everyone it somehow makes it ok since everyone isn't black, which is also ridiculous. It's basketball. College basketball rosters are overwhelmingly black. And maybe you don't understand the significance of what she said given the history over lynching in the south.
 
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#38
#38
Intent is the driver. Knowledge is the determiner. We all ALL ignorant about something. Ignorance is correctable; stupidity is permanent. If one is not willing to address another’s ignorance and help them correct it, then one should not complain when confronted by said ignorance or its repercussions.

And re, “You're telling people -- black people -- you're going to lynch them.” She has white and black kids on the team, maybe Asian. Did she address the comment only to the black kids? If so, then I’ll say no quarter given. If she addressed the team as a whole...? Again, poor choice of terms, but maybe educate would be a good choice in response. Give someone a chance to see things differently and change.

I think a lot of your response got off topic and into the emotional. Understood it is a sensitive topic.

I’m probably not expressing myself well, but courtesy, kindness, consideration, understanding are good first responses. Then if change does not occur, address it by other means. She may be seriously misunderstood and just needed to see a different viewpoint; she may be a mean old hag and deserved to be thrown out on her rear. I don’t know, and I’m not judging.

The news report states that there was a pattern of incidents. So, the noose reference is just one example and perhaps the most egregious one but it appears there were others. Also, given how serious schools are taking concussion protocols (as they should), questioning whether or not player really has a concussion and implying she should play, is very problematic.

The report also said complaints came from students and others (perhaps staff?). I think if the issue had been one, isolated insensitive remark, Hatchel might have been asked to participate in a cultural climate/diversity training session but the outcome probably would not have been a dismissal (or what appears to be a forced resignation).
 
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#39
#39
I didn't go off topic at all. The general consensus when an older person does something ignorant is that the younger generation are snowflakes and they're too sensitive. That's ridiculous in this instance, and generally speaking it's mostly a cop out for people who want to act without tact and decency and not get called out for it. People need to take responsibility for their actions and words, and people who belong to minority groups are tired of taking crap. That's just the bottom line. This is common sense on her part. It isn't rocket science. Right is right and wrong is wrong. If she's too dumb to realize that then I don't know what to say.

I understand what you're saying but you're seem to be coming from a place of naivety. You make it sound like if she has two white kids on the team and she was addressing everyone it somehow makes it ok since everyone isn't black, which is also ridiculous. It's basketball. College basketball rosters are overwhelmingly black. And maybe you don't understand the significance of what she said given the history over lynching in the south.
Sigh. I give up. Close minded is closed minded. Read what you wrote. I really tried to get you to look from another’s aspect, not just yours. Which is exactly what you are demanding from others. From what madtown wrote, she needed to go. But that does not change the point I was trying to make and which you totally missed.

No bother discussing anymore. This is a communication standstill.🧡
 
#40
#40
Sigh. I give up. Close minded is closed minded. Read what you wrote. I really tried to get you to look from another’s aspect, not just yours. Which is exactly what you are demanding from others. From what madtown wrote, she needed to go. But that does not change the point I was trying to make and which you totally missed.

No bother discussing anymore. This is a communication standstill.🧡


We are reaching the stage in the game where most of CPS's is no longer in the coaching ranks. I am not sure what C. Viv's current status is but she seems to be nearing the end of her career. Van de Veer at Stanford seems to be going strong; they aren't too many others still coaching from this pioneer generation.
 
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#41
#41
We are reaching the stage in the game where most of CPS cohort is really dwindling in the coaching ranks. I am not sure what C. Viv's current status is but she seems to be nearing the end of her career. Van de Veer at Stanford seems to be going strong; they aren't too many others still coaching from this pioneer generation.
Gino? Andy is on TV. Do you count Nell? Kim? CViv sounds bad, she has gone through a lot. Gary Blair? Matthew, or too young to count? Muffet...? Very few parallel with CPS like Tara and CViv, but quite a few “cross career time” like Matthew and Kim, even gino. The game is changing. And I really hope we get someone who can consistently shoot the quick release three! And speed, lots and lots of speed. The SECT was a nasty eye opener or a remembrance of time past, maybe both.
 
#42
#42
Gino? Andy is on TV. Do you count Nell? Kim? CViv sounds bad, she has gone through a lot. Gary Blair? Matthew, or too young to count? Muffet...? Very few parallel with CPS like Tara and CViv, but quite a few “cross career time” like Matthew and Kim, even gino. The game is changing. And I really hope we get someone who can consistently shoot the quick release three! And speed, lots and lots of speed. The SECT was a nasty eye opener or a remembrance of time past, maybe both.

Well, generational lines can be fuzzy; I always thought of Geno as the next wave of coaches who came after CPS, Kay Yow, Hatchell, C. Viv, and Barmore, and probably Landers. Oh, maybe Gary Blair and Wes Moore as well.

I think Nell and Matthews would definitely be the next generation.
 
#43
#43
Interesting to read a variety of accounts. Some mentioned her 1994 championship, some her total victories (over 1000), some support from former players (Latta, Larkins), some just focusing on tbe allegations and how long she was at NC.

One odd allegation mentioned in one news account wad that she once accused the team of playing "like a bunch of old mules." The other things were insensitive at best, but mules? That remark gets somebody upset?
 
#45
#45
Interesting to read a variety of accounts. Some mentioned her 1994 championship, some her total victories (over 1000), some support from former players (Latta, Larkins), some just focusing on tbe allegations and how long she was at NC.

One odd allegation mentioned in one news account wad that she once accused the team of playing "like a bunch of old mules." The other things were insensitive at best, but mules? That remark gets somebody upset?
Don’t tell Pat’s daddy...mules!
 
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#47
#47
A lot of young players of today, can’t deal with harsh statements, though such statements are not made with the intent of being insensitive or racist. That is not to say that coaches should intentionally make insensitive remarks. However, in today’s environment, coaches have to be careful of their words even though such words were not said to be offensive or racist. I have heard coaches use the term that their team will get hung out to dry if they don’t play their best. I used that term with my players but I was not trying to be racist or insensitive. If it is true that a coach is forcing players to play with injuries, that is not right. Parents agree to their children playing at a university, or college, with the belief that their child’s health and safety will come first.
 
#48
#48
I would say trying to make kids play through injuries against the the doctors orders and talking about being hanged and nooses, even if it wasn't meant in a racist way, goes WAY beyond being "old school." It's more a lack of common sense and decency. Yeah, I don't know if this says anything about old school coaches needing to do adapt. What I see is a coach that had to deal with a lot of problems and her team crumbled from a high status and in trying to get that team back to where it was she went off the deep end. It's honestly quite sad to a respected elderly coach lose her marbles like this. But all this discussion about how coaches need to change. Some of them do I guess. I mean the ones that cross the line from simply being old school to offensive and abusive. But I will say from what I seen about the way kids act today, there is a lot that they would do well to change about themselves as well. Old people aren't the only ones. Old ways are still better ways a lot of the time.
 
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#50
#50
A lot of young players of today, can’t deal with harsh statements, though such statements are not made with the intent of being insensitive or racist. That is not to say that coaches should intentionally make insensitive remarks. However, in today’s environment, coaches have to be careful of their words even though such words were not said to be offensive or racist. I have heard coaches use the term that their team will get hung out to dry if they don’t play their best. I used that term with my players but I was not trying to be racist or insensitive. If it is true that a coach is forcing players to play with injuries, that is not right. Parents agree to their children playing at a university, or college, with the belief that their child’s health and safety will come first.

I thought that term related to drying clothes.
 

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