Will this finally settle the Manning - Brady debate?

[Johnnyreb#VFL]

All the Brady apologists just casually ignoring the fact Tom knowingly cheated, caught and suspended very publicly while he smashes old cell phones as a hobby lol not to mention spygate. Who knows how long that stuff been going on before they got caught. Maybe one or two of those rings is legitimate? Either way he and the pats will be remembered as cheaters in my book.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Sure. And while Manning had better offenses, Brady had better defenses. Now what?

And some point you have to put aside conjecture and look at what is. Gun to my wife's head on the outcome, I'm picking Brady in post-season

Offense sells tickets, defense wins championships. If you had an equal team with Belicheck as the coach, I am taking Manning. But you really cannot go wrong with either one. Both are all time greats.

 

[VolinMC]

It's been said there is this thing called the "Patriots Way" mentioned for a while now when I watch the pros on tv.(I already know,,,,no one has heard anyone say it,lol)
Anyway,,they talk about the Pats get players that fit the system and their way of thinking. It's why the have a bunch of "no names" and continue to win. Sounds like a system to me.

 

[NCFisher]

Speaking to you is like speaking to a child. Where did i say a punter is as valuable to a team as a qb? Reading comprehension much?

The punter reference was satire; sorry to have wasted it.

I wasn't the one crazily drawing parallels between Dilfer and Brady in order to defy logic (that the QB is the single most important player on the team, and team success follows his play).

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

As I already posted, Brady's receivers in 2011 were as follows: Wes Welker, 32-year-old Deion Branch, 34-year-old Chad Johnson, Gronkowski, and Aaron Hernandez; his RBs were Benjarvis Green-Ellis and Danny Woodhead. Show me one other quarterback in the modern era, Manning or anyone else, who has made it to the Super Bowl, or for that matter a conference championship, with less for weapons. You can't because it has never happened.

Eli Manning's receivers for that game were Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, Victor Cruz and Jake Ballard; his RBs were Ahmad Bradshaw and Brandon Jacobs. What do you think Brady would have done if he had ever had receivers the caliber of Nicks, Manningham, and Cruz all in the same season, with two backs as good as Bradshaw and Jacobs?

Name another QB, Manning or otherwise, that has made it to the SB and had the luxury of having a top 10 scoring defense for almost every run.

Using your second paragraph as an example, what do you think Manning would have done playing in the AFC least divison, having top 10 defenses and the GOAT of coaches? How about Rodgers? Marino? Elway?

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

The punter reference was satire; sorry to have wasted it.

I wasn't the one crazily drawing parallels between Dilfer and Brady in order to defy logic (that the QB is the single most important player on the team, and team success follows his play).

Defense wins championships.

 

[615vols]

The punter reference was satire; sorry to have wasted it.

I wasn't the one crazily drawing parallels between Dilfer and Brady in order to defy logic (that the QB is the single most important player on the team, and team success follows his play).

You literally said " EVERY teams success lies on the back of the qb". Thats a false statement, dilfer was my example, which either went over your head or once again youre deflecting because it doesnt fit your narrative. You arent very good at this.

 

[Jaws]

Amazing time to be watching what? A guy putting up 13 points in the lowest scoring Sb ever?

I've got no skin in the game, I'm a Jaguars fan for crying out loud. Brady has been to 9 Super Bowls and won six, and all indications are he'll be back again to win 7 or even 8. He's Michael Jordan, Hank Aaron, Wayne Gretzky, Richard Petty, Muhammad Ali, Jack Nicklaus great at his sport. At this point, forget football, he's claimed the greatest ever by far already, the question is now, is he greater than Jordan was at his sport? Or the greatest at any sport, ever.

 

[615vols]

It's been said there is this thing called the "Patriots Way" mentioned for a while now when I watch the pros on tv.(I already know,,,,no one has heard anyone say it,lol)
Anyway,,they talk about the Pats get players that fit the system and their way of thinking. It's why the have a bunch of "no names" and continue to win. Sounds like a system to me.

A good system, which is why when brady gets injured matt cassel leads the pats to 11-5 or jimmy g and brissett go 3-1. Meanwhile peyton goes to a super bowl with 4 different head coaches.

 

[Bigorangefaninga]

I can't begin to fathom what you're implying regarding Kaepernick, but it seems to rhyme with 'tin foil hat'.

What's absolutely stupid is to think elite players want anything but rings. QBs are the most important position in "the damn team sport", Sport. Getting most attention for wins or losses is therefore part of the package. Everyone without an axe to grind understands this simple reality.

Would Marino rather polish a ring or hear "best QB to never win a Super Bowl" for the thousandth time?

Should have put that better, never mentioned kaperdick, however Poor Ole Tom did run off Jimmy Garrapolo to the 49er’s because he went 3-1 with the team while Tom was fiddling with his deflated balls! You know the ones he said don’t effect anything yet many QB’s said it helps a great deal depending on a QB’s feel for the ball and multiple teams have said they had caught him doing it previously! You know just like spygate. The whole organization is a bunch of cheaters and it starts with their QB!

 

[crparker21]

What's the metric?

The Most Valuable and Most Highly Decorated player -- let alone QB -- is PManning.

I can't think of a better metric for an individual accolade.

Can you?

The stats are really close. The metric you keep going by is all pro and mvps chosen by the press. The same press that says Brady is the goat. The big question is who is #2. Half of the that same press say Manning and the other half say someone else. We all love Manning, but any reputable source out there says Brady is the GOAT.

 

[NCFisher]

You literally said " EVERY teams success lies on the back of the qb". Thats a false statement, dilfer was my example, which either went over your head or once again youre deflecting because it doesnt fit your narrative. You arent very good at this.

And in practicality, EVERY team's success lies on the back of the QB. Exceptions are called that for a reason; they deviate from the norm and your wishing them to be otherwise, well, just doesn't make them the rule.

I'm doing fine, but thanks for the concern.

 

[NCFisher]

Defense wins championships.

All that means is you can't win with offense alone; you have to not let the other offense score more than yours.
I think everyone is on board with the idea.

 

[NCFisher]

Should have put that better, never mentioned kaperdick, however Poor Ole Tom did run off Jimmy Garrapolo to the 49er’s because he went 3-1 with the team while Tom was fiddling with his deflated balls! You know the ones he said don’t effect anything yet many QB’s said it helps a great deal depending on a QB’s feel for the ball and multiple teams have said they had caught him doing it previously! You know just like spygate. The whole organization is a bunch of cheaters and it starts with their QB!

Okay, so scratch a couple SBs and Brady is only as good as Montana. Seriously, you're more invested(!) in this than I.

It can't possibly just be that someone is better in post-season than Manning.

 

[NCFisher]

duplicate

 

[newyorkvol]

Peyton threw for 141 yards, zero TDs and 1 INT in that Super Bowl, and was sacked five times. Whereas Brady threw for 262 yards, zero TDs and 1 INT and was sacked one time yesterday - by a vastly better defense than what Manning played against. Never has there been a better example of how silly and meaningless QBR is than your example. QBR is entirely fabricated and based on opinion, unlike actual stats such as yards and sacks that are objective; comparing the two is like comparing postseason wins to MVP awards - one is objective and inarguable, while the other is 100% subjective, and therefore completely worthless in evaluating the greatness, or lack thereof, of a player. Any Vol fan who claims voted-on awards mean anything has to then acknowledge that Charles Woodson deserved to win the Heisman over Manning (which is ludicrous).

My only point with the QBR was that a bad Manning day Super Bowl is credited to the defense, while a bad Brady day Super Bowl is still credited to his greatness. And stats are “objective” but clearly don’t tell the whole story. Brady threw for 145 and 1TD which is not objectively very impressive, but won the super bowl mvp with a last minute drive. And that once again is my biggest point...there is not clear way do truly compare both due to the extreme amount of variables around them.

They are two of the best QB’s ever. The GOAT argument is just silly.

 

[KBVol]

SO....I guess we just refuse to acknowledge that Manning's 2nd SB WIN was more about Denver's D than Manning's QB play???

And you guys seem to forget about the Colts' Defensive play thru the playoffs for Manning's first SB win against da Bears....as well as Manning's choke against the Ravens in the 2012 playoffs at home--which took 2 special teams TDs just to keep Denver in that game....not to mention his INTs against the Saints in his 2nd SB.....

Manning was a GREAT QB....NO way anyone can doubt that fact. But his playoff performances were certainly not great over the whole of his career.

Yet, he won 3 of 5 AFC championship games vs Brady with far worse defenses 4 of the 5 games and a far inferior head coach and front office. Brady had the advantage of being a part of a better organization and better all around teams most every time they played.

And may I also remind you of this.....


Manning played better and was more productive in his 13 playoff losses than Brady was in his worst 13 playoff games...... in which the Pats went 13-0.

 

[volfannbama]

Yet, he won 3 of 5 AFC championship games vs Brady with far worse defenses 4 of the 5 games and a far inferior head coach and front office. Brady had the advantage of being a part of a better organization and better all around teams most every time they played.

And may I also remind you of this.....

View attachment 192698

Why did the compare his 13 worst? Why not his 13 best, or the middle 13?

 

[KBVol]

Which games don't count?

The ones that disprove his points.

 

[jps2194]

Why did the compare his 13 worst? Why not his 13 best, or the middle 13?

That is an interesting stat and I believe the point is, Brady's stats in the worst 13 performances (won all 13) is not as good as Peyton's stats in the 13 games he lost. Which is drawing a parallel to the fact that this is a team sport and Brady didn't win the 6 rings just because of himself.

There's no denying the fact that Belichick is a genius and has more to do with the Pat's success than Brady. Don't get me wrong, I think Brady is fantastic and there is no denying that - but most on here don't want to acknowledge the fact that he doesn't have 6 rings without Belichick as the coach. If Peyton had been drafted by the Pats and had Belichick as his coach for his entire career, I have no doubt Peyton would have way more rings than he currently has.

 

[KBVol]

Why did the compare his 13 worst? Why not his 13 best, or the middle 13?

Are you serious? To drive home the point even further that the Patriots haven’t needed Brady to even play WELL to win playoff games.

Let’s try this again......

Take Brady’s worst 13 performances in playoffs, where he threw only 11 TDs and 15 interceptions, with a beyond pedestrian 72 qb rating......the Patriots were 13-0. 13 of his 30 playoff wins, Brady wasn’t good, and it didn’t matter, the Patriots didn’t need him to be. This further cements the idea of Brady’s great fortune of playing under Belichick in that Patriots organization.

Look at this year....he threw 2 tds and 3 interceptions (really 4, if Dee Ford doesn’t line up offsides) in 3 playoff games and the Pats won yet another Super Bowl. Mitch Trubisky has a higher passer rating this playoff season for crying out loud.

Brady has had a great career, is a great QB, is a first ballot HOFer. But people are claiming definitively that he’s definitely the GOAT...hell, I’ve said it myself in the past....because of the phenomenal success and all those Super Bowl wins....and the truth is, they haven’t needed him to play even well, even average to win nearly half of all the playoff games they’ve won with him as their qb. To the contrary, the numbers say they’ve won at least 13 games DESPITE him being their qb.

Pretty elementary stuff.

 

[KBVol]

That is an interesting stat and I believe the point is, Brady's stats in the worst 13 performances (won all 13) is not as good as Peyton's stats in the 13 games he lost. Which is drawing a parallel to the fact that this is a team sport and Brady didn't win the 6 rings just because of himself.

There's no denying the fact that Belichick is a genius and has more to do with the Pat's success than Brady. Don't get me wrong, I think Brady is fantastic and there is no denying that - but most on here don't want to acknowledge the fact that he doesn't have 6 rings without Belichick as the coach. If Peyton had been drafted by the Pats and had Belichick as his coach for his entire career, I have no doubt Peyton would have way more rings than he currently has.

100% spot on.

I’ll take it a step further....as great as Brady is, I think there’s little to no doubt that Belichick wins 6 titles with no less than any of 6-7 other QBs who have played in the nfl during Brady’s time with NE. Manning, Rodgers, Favre, Brees, Warner for sure. Hell, Eli beat him twice, I’d be curious to have seen what Belichick could’ve done with a guy like him. Throw in Philip Rivers and Russell Wilson while we’re at it.

Bottom line, NE has won those all those playoff games and SuperBowls because of their organization, their culture, their defense, their TEAM....Brady has certainly played his part extremely well for a majority of the time, but even when he hasn’t, they’ve still won. There are other QBs, other more talented QBs, who Belichick would’ve won at the same high level with had he not had Brady.

 

[volfannbama]

QB playoff record...

Brady 29-10
Manning 14-13

Brady provides a much larger sample size to scrutinize.

 

[Rooster1]

Why is this even a debate? Its no longer in doubt and hasn't been for quite some time now, at least to impartial people. The single greatest attribute that Brady has, which no one has discussed, is his penchant for leading game winning TD drives in the fourth. He has more of those than Manning, Montana and Marino combined. The guy is the most clutch QB to ever play the game. Six championships are enough of a reminder. And yes, history will record him as the greatest NFL player ever, and it wont even be close, no debate.

 

[KBVol]

QB playoff record...

Brady 29-10
Manning 14-13

Brady provides a much larger sample size to scrutinize.

And? All we’re doing is pointing out that the Pats have won nearly half of those games with Brady playing poorly/well below average.

And again, Brady has had some great playoff performances. But when you look at his 13 worse playoff games, where he collectively threw 11 td passes vs 15 interceptions, the Pats are 13-0. That speaks to the team, the organization, the defense and the head coach being more important to winning in New England than the quarterback.