Recruiting Forum Football Talk [RIP 9.3.2019]

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#112,288
#112,288
BearCat204 said:
It’s not the only metric, but with his stats the 6 rings does matter. Montana barely breaks the top 20 in passing yards and Bradshaw is even worse.
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Tom Brady, not for a single season, has had to carry that entire franchise on his shoulders...that would be Bill Belichick. I have dreamed for a long time what Manning could have done with not only Belichick as a HC; but, all the other great offensive and defensive coaches Belichick and Brady has has had. Manning, for almost the entire duration of his career (all of his yrs in Indy), carried not only an entire franchise, but an entire city on his shoulders; and in the process, took four different head coaches to the Super Bowl.

Whenever Tom Brady missed an entire season, Matt Cassell...yes, Matt Cassell, led that TEAM to an 11-5 season, and missed the playoffs by one game. Whenever Brady missed 4 games last year, two different backups...yes, two different backups, led them to a 3-1 start. Whenever Manning went down for an entire season, the Colts were able to win 2 games...yes, all of 2 games. And, even though he was at the end of his career, have the Broncos even sniffed the playoffs since he retired, much less 2 Super Bowls?

Also, in the AFC Championship Game, the biggest game that Manning and Brady could have possibly faced each other in, head to head, Manning was 3-1 against Brady, and Belichick.

Almost all of Brady's career, he has been able to take the field relaxed, knowing that if he didn't move the ball, and they had to punt, he had a defense (led by maybe the greatest defensive coach of all time) that would get him the ball back. In knowing that, it removed enormous!!! pressure from off of him; he could let the game come to him more naturally. Manning's entire time in Indy, he NEVER had that luxury. He took the field everytime, knowing he HAD TO score. Just imagine, all throughout his prime, what he could've done with a defense that was just half as good as those Broncos defenses. In Denver, when he finally had D's to compliment him, he went to 2 Super Bowls in 4 years. This is one of many small little things, and has been part of my argument for 20 years.

Listen, I'm not saying Brady isn't great...he is unbelievably great. I just don't believe he is as great as Manning, Elway, or Marino. And yes, the rings should absolutely count and hold heavy weight in his defense; but, there is also many many many other factors, both big and small.

This is where I get off this ride; Lord knows how many times I've had this conversation over the yrs. We're all entitled to our opinion, and you and I, my friend, will just have to agree to disagree. And that is totally cool with me.

Go Vols, and go big #18, the true GOAT.
 
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#112,290
#112,290
SugarCC said:
Tom Brady, not for a single season, has had to carry that entire franchise on his shoulders...that would be Bill Belichick. I have dreamed for a long time what Manning could have done with not only Belichick as a HC; but, all the other great offensive and defensive coaches Belichick and Brady has has had. Manning, for almost the entire duration of his career (all of his yrs in Indy), carried not only an entire franchise, but an entire city on his shoulders; and in the process, took four different head coaches to the Super Bowl.

Whenever Tom Brady missed an entire season, Matt Cassell...yes, Matt Cassell, led that TEAM to an 11-5 season, and missed the playoffs by one game. Whenever Brady missed 4 games last year, two different backups...yes, two different backups, led them to a 3-1 start. Whenever Manning went down for an entire season, the Colts were able to win 2 games...yes, all of 2 games. And, even though he was at the end of his career, have the Broncos even sniffed the playoffs since he retired, much less 2 Super Bowls?

Also, in the AFC Championship Game, the biggest game that Manning and Brady could have possibly faced each other in, head to head, Manning was 3-1 against Brady, and Belichick.

Almost all of Brady's career, he has been able to take the field relaxed, knowing that if he didn't move the ball, and they had to punt, he had a defense (led by maybe the greatest defensive coach of all time) that would get him the ball back. In knowing that, it removed enormous!!! pressure from off of him; he could let the game come to him more naturally. Manning's entire time in Indy, he NEVER had that luxury. He took the field everytime, knowing he HAD TO score. Just imagine, all throughout his prime, what he could've done with a defense that was just half as good as those Broncos defenses. In Denver, when he finally had D's to compliment him, he went to 2 Super Bowls in 4 years. This is one of many small little things, and has been part of my argument for 20 years.

Listen, I'm not saying Brady isn't great...he is unbelievably great. I just don't believe he is as great as Manning, Elway, or Marino. And yes, the rings should absolutely count and hold heavy weight in his defense; but, there is also many many many other factors, both big and small.

This is where I get off this ride; Lord knows how many times I've had this conversation over the yrs. We're all entitled to our opinion, and you and I, my friend, will just have to agree to disagree. And that is totally cool with me.

Go Vols, and go big #18, the true GOAT.
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Manning had a top 10 defense in 02 (#7) and 05 (#2), 07 (#1), 08(#7) and was a first round exit every times, scoring only 18, 0, 24 and 17 points. The Peyton never had good defenses is a myth

Not to mention the SB loss to the saints he had a top 10 defense and the numerous times towards the beginning of his career where the defense held the opponents to under 20 points but the offense couldn’t score. Go back and look, you’ll be surprised by what you see

And about Denver, in 2012 he was a first round exit with a top 5 defense, the year he went to the SB he had a defense that wasn’t even top 20
 
#112,294
#112,294
butchna said:
Won by 10. Calls didn’t score those points. When it came down to 4 minutes, they made every first down needed before the nail in the coffin FG. That was execution.
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This. Belicheck coaches in a very close modern day comparison to Gen. Neyland. It's trench warfare and an emphasis on defense. Add in one of the greatest QBs to ever play the game and with one very talented WR and TE and you have a literal machine.
 
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#112,295
#112,295
Smokey123 said:
Manning had a top 10 defense in 02 (#7) and 05 (#2), 07 (#1), 08(#7) and was a first round exit every times, scoring only 18, 0, 24 and 17 points. The Peyton never had good defenses is a myth

Not to mention the SB loss to the saints he had a top 10 defense and the numerous times towards the beginning of his career where the defense held the opponents to under 20 points but the offense couldn’t score. Go back and look, you’ll be surprised by what you see

And about Denver, in 2012 he was a first round exit with a top 5 defense, the year he went to the SB he had a defense that wasn’t even top 20
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2002: yes, #7 defense. It was also the same defense that gave up 41 to the Jets in that playoff game. Chad Pennington went 19-25 for 222 yds, and 3TDs . The Jets also had 180 yds rushing as a team on 42 carries (4.2 ypc), and 2 more TDs. That's 396 yds of total offense. The Colt defense allowed the Jets to score 3TDs and kick a FG on 5 first half possessions, and 2TDs and a FG on 4 second half possessions. Yes, Manning played horrible, but the Colts had only 52 yds rushing as a team, as well; missing a FG and fumbling on the first 3 possessions of the game. Manning's 2 ints came after the game was long over.

2005: yes, the #2 defense. It was also the same defense that gave up 300 total yds on 68 plays, and 21 first downs to the Steelers in that playoff game. Rothliesberger was 14-24 for 197 yds and 2TDs; and the Steelers also rushed for 112 yds, and another score. The Steelers scored 2 TDs in their first 3 possessions. Manning was 22-38 for 290 yds and a touchdown; and only got 58 yds rushing as a team. Yes, the D created two turnovers, including the fumble that led to Manning marching them into FG range, and Mike Vanderjagt missing a 46 yd FG to send it to OT...Adam Vinatieri doesn't miss that FG.

2007: yes, the #1 defense. It was also the same defense that gave up 411 total yds to the Chargers in that playoff game. Rivers was 17-23 for 312 yds, and 3 TDs. San Diego also had 99 yds rushing as a team, and another TD. Manning was 33-48 for 402 yds, 3TDs and 2 INTs. Indy had 44 yds rushing as a team.

2008: yes, the #7 defense. It was also the same defense that gave up 357 total yds to the Chargers in that playoff game. San Diego had 167 yds rushing and 3 TDs on 33 carries (5 ypc). Indy had 64 yds rushing on 22 carries (2.9 ypc). Manning was 25-42 for 310 yds and a touchdown.

2009: yes, the #8 defense. It was also the same defense that allowed Drew Brees to set a Super Bowl record with 32 completions on 39 attempts (that's 7 incompletions out of 39 attempts), for 288 yds and 2 TDs; while also failing to stop drives that eat up almost the entire 2nd and 3rd quarters...Manning hardly saw the field during this time. Also, if Pierre Garcon could catch, he takes a Manning pass to the house and scores, making it 17-3, and maybe dealing a major blow. Instead, he drops a sure TD, Indy has to punt. Saints go down and kick a FG cutting it to 10-6; then they get onside kick coming out of half, go down and score, and the rest is history.

2012: yes, the #4 defense. It was also the same defense that gave up 38 points to Baltimore in that playoff game, and 479 total yds of offense; not to mention the bomb by Flacco that set up the winning FG. Flacco was 18-34 for 331 yds and 3TDs; not to mention the Ravens rushed for 155 yds on 39 carries (4 ypc).

Manning having top ranked defenses that stayed top ranked in the playoffs is a myth, as well.
 
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#112,296
#112,296
SugarCC said:
2002: yes, #7 defense. It was also the same defense that gave up 41 to the Jets in that playoff game. Chad Pennington went 19-25 for 222 yds, and 3TDs . The Jets also had 180 yds rushing as a team on 42 carries (4.2 ypc), and 2 more TDs. That's 396 yds of total offense. The Colt defense allowed the Jets to score 3TDs and kick a FG on 5 first half possessions, and 2TDs and a FG on 4 second half possessions. Yes, Manning played horrible, but the Colts had only 52 yds rushing as a team, as well; missing a FG and fumbling on the first 3 possessions of the game. Manning's 2 ints came after the game was long over.

2005: yes, the #2 defense. It was also the same defense that gave up 300 total yds on 68 plays, and 21 first downs to the Steelers in that playoff game. Rothliesberger was 14-24 for 197 yds and 2TDs; and the Steelers also rushed for 112 yds, and another score. The Steelers scored 2 TDs in their first 3 possessions. Manning was 22-38 for 290 yds and a touchdown; and only got 58 yds rushing as a team. Yes, the D created two turnovers, including the fumble that led to Manning marching them into FG range, and Mike Vanderjagt missing a 46 yd FG to send it to OT...Adam Vinatieri doesn't miss that FG.

2007: yes, the #1 defense. It was also the same defense that gave up 411 total yds to the Chargers in that playoff game. Rivers was 17-23 for 312 yds, and 3 TDs. San Diego also had 99 yds rushing as a team, and another TD. Manning was 33-48 for 402 yds, 3TDs and 2 INTs. Indy had 44 yds rushing as a team.

2008: yes, the #7 defense. It was also the same defense that gave up 357 total yds to the Chargers in that playoff game. San Diego had 167 yds rushing and 3 TDs on 33 carries (5 ypc). Indy had 64 yds rushing on 22 carries (2.9 ypc). Manning was 25-42 for 310 yds and a touchdown.

2009: yes, the #8 defense. It was also the same defense that allowed Drew Brees to set a Super Bowl record with 32 completions on 39 attempts (that's 7 incompletions out of 39 attempts), for 288 yds and 2 TDs; while also failing to stop drives that eat up almost the entire 2nd and 3rd quarters...Manning hardly saw the field during this time. Also, if Pierre Garcon could catch, he takes a Manning pass to the house and scores, making it 17-3, and maybe dealing a major blow. Instead, he drops a sure TD, Indy has to punt. Saints go down and kick a FG cutting it to 10-6; then they get onside kick coming out of half, go down and score, and the rest is history.

2012: yes, the #4 defense. It was also the same defense that gave up 38 points to Baltimore in that playoff game, and 479 total yds of offense; not to mention the bomb by Flacco that set up the winning FG. Flacco was 18-34 for 331 yds and 3TDs; not to mention the Ravens rushed for 155 yds on 39 carries (4 ypc).

Manning having top ranked defenses that stayed top ranked in the playoffs is a myth, as well.
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Mannings first 3 playoff appearances he was 0-3, never threw for more than 220 and had a combined 1 TD and 2 INT’s. The defense allowed 17 and 19 in two of those games.

It’s the playoffs, you’re playing against elite teams obviously your stats will drop some.

Notice how you only mentioned how many POINTS the defense allows just two times. Which is the only time they allowed more than 24, except for 07 but that’s because Manning threw two key interceptions.

05? Allows 21 points. 08? Allows 17. 09? Allowed 24, and on top of that manning threw a key pick six.

Also completely forgot about 2010, allowing 17... Yet only scored 16.

You sure do make a lot of excuses for the GOAT

Clearly this argument you’ve been using for 20 years isn’t correct: Manning's entire time in Indy, he NEVER had that luxury. He took the field everytime, knowing he HAD TO score. Just imagine, all throughout his prime, what he could've done with a defense that was just half as good as those Broncos defenses.
 
#112,298
#112,298
Smokey123 said:
Mannings first 3 playoff appearances he was 0-3, never threw for more than 220 and had a combined 1 TD and 2 INT’s. The defense allowed 17 and 19 in two of those games.

It’s the playoffs, you’re playing against elite teams obviously your stats will drop some.

Notice how you only mentioned how many POINTS the defense allows just two times. Which is the only time they allowed more than 24, except for 07 but that’s because Manning threw two key interceptions.

05? Allows 21 points. 08? Allows 17. 09? Allowed 24, and on top of that manning threw a key pick six.

Also completely forgot about 2010, allowing 17... Yet only scored 16.

You sure do make a lot of excuses for the GOAT

Clearly this argument you’ve been using for 20 years isn’t correct: Manning's entire time in Indy, he NEVER had that luxury. He took the field everytime, knowing he HAD TO score. Just imagine, all throughout his prime, what he could've done with a defense that was just half as good as those Broncos defenses.
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And clearly you'll go out of your way to try and prove he's not the GOAT, Vol fan. But, hey...I guess you're just trying to be a "realist", right. You kind of sound like Chief...I believe he is a "realist", too.

I stick by what I posted; and even moreso than that, what I saw. Clearly it's correct, and no excuses needed when I say, he's still the only man in NFL history to win 5 MVPs, take 4 different head coaches to the Super Bowl, and win it with two different franchises. He's also the only man to ever throw for 5,477 yards and 55 Touchdowns in a single season. Also, when he retired, he held, and still holds, almost every single passing record that's ever been thought up.

And, also, again...he was 3-1 against your boy, Brady, head to head, on the field, in the AFC Championship; including the biggest comeback in a conference championship, in NFL history.

Why don't we throw out passing records and mvp's and rings, and look at head to head, on the field, in the playoffs; because, hey...Manning was no good in the playoffs according to you and your ilk, right. Well, he was good enough to get the job done against Brady...head to head, on the field of play. I believe he may have had a losing record against Philip Rivers, and maybe one or two more, in the playoffs, but...not against your boy, Brady. Brady was 2-3 against Manning in the playoffs...a place where Manning was supposedly so bad; 1-3 in the AFC Championship Game.

I'm done, dude. You can ramble on some more, if you wish; but, you'll be wasting your time if it's for me to read. I've already given you more time than I have others, whenever it comes to this argument. Brady is as great as they come; but, he will never be Manning...I don't care how many Super Bowls he wins...with Belichick.

Also, one other thing I just thought of, and THEN I'm done...you talk about Manning's defenses only allowing 21, or 17, or 16, or 15 points, and Manning still losing those games, while carrying the water for Brady's greatness...Manning could only dream of his defenses giving up only 3 points in a Super Bowl...to, what, the #2, #3 rated offense in the NFL. Whatever, man.
 
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