USAF can't volunteer with Salvation Army

#1
Grand Vol

Grand Vol

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#1
Military Religious Freedom Foundation jumping the shark in a huge way. And if you're going to question what goes on, don't be an extreme douche about it (see link below quote)

Air Force volunteer work with Salvation Army raises question...

Members of Grand Forks Air Force Base raised concerns after high-ranking officials sent an email Tuesday that offered an opportunity to volunteer for the Salvation Army during duty hours.

Mikey Weinstein, founder of Military Religious Freedom Foundation, said about 40 military members contacted him because they said they felt the base was showing religious favoritism. He alleged the offer violated their constitutional rights by merging church and state and is in violation of the Air Force Standards.

The Salvation Army is an international Christian church and charitable organization.

"There's no problem with the Salvation Army," Weinstein said. "The problem is with the Air Force singling it out and endorsing a nonfederal entity, but more importantly, this is a direct violation of the no-establishment clause of the First Amendment."
Click to expand...

Here's the email chain at the following link:

http://militaryreligiousfreedom.org/press-releases/DutyHours_NotForReligiousVoluntelling.pdf
 
#2
#2
Key point is "during duty hours". If they have a broad spectrum of charitable agencies to choose from then it's not as bad.
 
#5
#5
Yeah. About 3 atheists and a muslim. Did i say 40? Oh my bad, I meant 4....

The atheists on reddit are unbearable. Always angry. Always. Always super eager to let everyone know they are atheists, too...they are also very young. I bet the average age of a redditor is 20ish, because for every 28 there is a 12. Atheism seems to have come now to being a part of " teenage rebellion and angst!!!!" Has to be screamed, always on reddit.

I dont care if you dont believe in God. I am supposed to, but unless I actually know and care about you, I dont really. It would be great if others believed the way I do I guess...but I dont lose sleep over it. I dont witness and try to actively lead others to Christ, either. Its sinful that I dont, and I will have to answer for that...but I dont. Have only witnessed to 3 people besides my kids in 15 years of being saved, and they are people that I love. I dont push my beliefs on others.

So dont push your atheism on me. Period. Note i didnt mention agnostics...they dont know. By definition, and tend to chill.

Pushy atheists instead of attacking everything Christian and being so loud...should start living out their faith. In themselves obviously. Dont celebrate Christmas. Its CHRISTmas. His birthday party. To celebrate that would be like me throwing Satan a big party every year. Its the exact opposite of my beliefs, and extremely hypocritical...no need for a CHRISTmas tree, CHRISTmas presents, CHRISTmas music, none of that. How can a loudmouthed atheist that attacks every other thing that they deem Christian possibly rationalize celebrating Christmas??? How?? Talk about twisting logic and reason? Stop the hypocrisy. If you are an atheist, own it 12 months a year, not 11...take back all the presents, take down the tree, turn off that ",jingle bells" and especially " silent night"...tell your kids you dont believe in God, or Hypocrisy, so this year will be intellectually honest grinch style December....oh, and a Happy New Year.

Right?
 
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#6
#6
marcusluvsvols said:
Yeah. About 3 atheists and a muslim. Did i say 40? Oh my bad, I meant 4....

The atheists on reddit are unbearable. Always angry. Always. Always super eager to let everyone know they are atheists, too...they are also very young. I bet the average age of a redditor is 20ish, because for every 28 there is a 12. Atheism seems to have come now to being a part of " teenage rebellion and angst!!!!" Has to be screamed, always on reddit.

I dont care if you dont believe in God. I am supposed to, but unless I actually know and care about you, I dont really. It would be great if others believed the way I do I guess...but I dont lose sleep over it. I dont witness and try to actively lead others to Christ, either. Its sinful that I dont, and I will have to answer for that...but I dont. Have only witnessed to 3 people besides my kids in 15 years of being saved, and they are people that I love. I dont push my beliefs on others.

So dont push your atheism on me. Period. Note i didnt mention agnostics...they dont know. By definition, and tend to chill.

Pushy atheists instead of attacking everything Christian and being so loud...should start living out their faith. In themselves obviously. Dont celebrate Christmas. Its CHRISTmas. His birthday party. To celebrate that would be like me throwing Satan a big party every year. Its the exact opposite of my beliefs, and extremely hypocritical...no need for a CHRISTmas tree, CHRISTmas presents, CHRISTmas music, none of that. How can a loudmouthed atheist that attacks every other thing that they deem Christian possibly rationalize celebrating Christmas??? How?? Talk about twisting logic and reason? Stop the hypocrisy. If you are an atheist, own it 12 months a year, not 11...take back all the presents, take down the tree, turn off that ",jingle bells" and especially " silent night"...tell your kids you dont believe in God, or Hypocrisy, so this year will be intellectually honest grinch style December....oh, and a Happy New Year.

Right?
Click to expand...
I can sort of agree with your sentiments here, although my experience with volunteering in the military was that it was typically not voluntary. I don't think this case is a violation of the establishment clause.

Also, Christmas hasn't been about Christ in decades. It's about the religion of consumerism.
 
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#7
#7
marcusluvsvols said:
Yeah. About 3 atheists and a muslim. Did i say 40? Oh my bad, I meant 4....

The atheists on reddit are unbearable. Always angry. Always. Always super eager to let everyone know they are atheists, too...they are also very young. I bet the average age of a redditor is 20ish, because for every 28 there is a 12. Atheism seems to have come now to being a part of " teenage rebellion and angst!!!!" Has to be screamed, always on reddit.

I dont care if you dont believe in God. I am supposed to, but unless I actually know and care about you, I dont really. It would be great if others believed the way I do I guess...but I dont lose sleep over it. I dont witness and try to actively lead others to Christ, either. Its sinful that I dont, and I will have to answer for that...but I dont. Have only witnessed to 3 people besides my kids in 15 years of being saved, and they are people that I love. I dont push my beliefs on others.

So dont push your atheism on me. Period. Note i didnt mention agnostics...they dont know. By definition, and tend to chill.

Pushy atheists instead of attacking everything Christian and being so loud...should start living out their faith. In themselves obviously. Dont celebrate Christmas. Its CHRISTmas. His birthday party. To celebrate that would be like me throwing Satan a big party every year. Its the exact opposite of my beliefs, and extremely hypocritical...no need for a CHRISTmas tree, CHRISTmas presents, CHRISTmas music, none of that. How can a loudmouthed atheist that attacks every other thing that they deem Christian possibly rationalize celebrating Christmas??? How?? Talk about twisting logic and reason? Stop the hypocrisy. If you are an atheist, own it 12 months a year, not 11...take back all the presents, take down the tree, turn off that ",jingle bells" and especially " silent night"...tell your kids you dont believe in God, or Hypocrisy, so this year will be intellectually honest grinch style December....oh, and a Happy New Year.

Right?
Click to expand...


Do I seem angry to you?

I see a problem with this because it is during duty hours. Fix it by allowing service members to volunteer while on the clock at a range of non-profits. When your boss sends you an invitation to work on the clock for charity and you say nah, I'm good, I can imagine that the reaction from said boss ain't gonna be good.

Your problem with pushy atheists seems to be that pushy Christians in this country have been able to push their religion upon all citizens and now people are pushing back. Personally, none of it offends me or is worth fighting for, but I understand the arguments and agree with them in principle.

As far as Christmas, it is a pagan holiday appropriated so Christians could gain followers. I celebrate Christmas not for the religious reasons, but because it is a time to celebrate family. I also adopt a local family that I know is suffering economic hardships each year to ensure that their children have a good Christmas. I have done only one family for the past several years, but I think next year I would like to try and get 5. Something like that is only going to be possible because the mothers of the last two families we helped want to assist and help organize people that want to help and organize the effort and coordinate delivery of gifts. That is what Christmas is about to me, but I am a pushy atheist.
 
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#8
#8
The Salvation Army is a garbage organization
**** them.

I’ve had extensive dealings with them.
 
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#9
#9
Cv,

Dont consider you a pushy atheist, you are about 20 years older than most of the crowd i describe. Also respect your giving and that is a more "Christian" way to celebrate the holidays than the vast majority of self professing Christians will ever do. Respect here. I dont remember you ever being a militant, and attacking all things Christian. Cant say the same for all who post here though. Had a complete meltdown by one in the remote island tribe thread in the last week. Merry Christmas
 
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#10
#10
ClearwaterVol said:
Do I seem angry to you?

I see a problem with this because it is during duty hours. Fix it by allowing service members to volunteer while on the clock at a range of non-profits. When your boss sends you an invitation to work on the clock for charity and you say nah, I'm good, I can imagine that the reaction from said boss ain't gonna be good.

Your problem with pushy atheists seems to be that pushy Christians in this country have been able to push their religion upon all citizens and now people are pushing back. Personally, none of it offends me or is worth fighting for, but I understand the arguments and agree with them in principle.

As far as Christmas, it is a pagan holiday appropriated so Christians could gain followers. I celebrate Christmas not for the religious reasons, but because it is a time to celebrate family. I also adopt a local family that I know is suffering economic hardships each year to ensure that their children have a good Christmas. I have done only one family for the past several years, but I think next year I would like to try and get 5. Something like that is only going to be possible because the mothers of the last two families we helped want to assist and help organize people that want to help and organize the effort and coordinate delivery of gifts. That is what Christmas is about to me, but I am a pushy atheist.
Click to expand...

Having been a part of that world, there typically are a wide range of non-profits offered for volunteer opportunities. And trust me, the "senior leadership" portion of that whole situation is a crock. First Sergeants get those kinds of requests all the time and forward them out appropriately. I'd dare say most never follow up on it. Even in the email it states "get with SSgt So-and-so for further details." Which is polite military speak for "I'm sending this out and it's no longer my problem."

.Mil folks, at least the USAF kind, are expected to do some form of community volunteer work for annual performance ratings. It's hard finding new and creative ways of motivating younger troops to get out. This seemed like a gift wrapped opportunity to give them something out of the norm and was a worthy cause as well. Handing out food baskets is about as secular as they come regardless of who's sponsoring it.

This guy causing the kerfuffle is a raging douche seeking attention and it has zero to do with touting one religion over another. If you asked 100 people about the background, I'd be willing to bet 99 of them would say "the Salvation Army is a religious organization?"
 
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#11
#11
marcusluvsvols said:
Yeah. About 3 atheists and a muslim. Did i say 40? Oh my bad, I meant 4....

The atheists on reddit are unbearable. Always angry. Always. Always super eager to let everyone know they are atheists, too...they are also very young. I bet the average age of a redditor is 20ish, because for every 28 there is a 12. Atheism seems to have come now to being a part of " teenage rebellion and angst!!!!" Has to be screamed, always on reddit.

I dont care if you dont believe in God. I am supposed to, but unless I actually know and care about you, I dont really. It would be great if others believed the way I do I guess...but I dont lose sleep over it. I dont witness and try to actively lead others to Christ, either. Its sinful that I dont, and I will have to answer for that...but I dont. Have only witnessed to 3 people besides my kids in 15 years of being saved, and they are people that I love. I dont push my beliefs on others.

So dont push your atheism on me. Period. Note i didnt mention agnostics...they dont know. By definition, and tend to chill.

Pushy atheists instead of attacking everything Christian and being so loud...should start living out their faith. In themselves obviously. Dont celebrate Christmas. Its CHRISTmas. His birthday party. To celebrate that would be like me throwing Satan a big party every year. Its the exact opposite of my beliefs, and extremely hypocritical...no need for a CHRISTmas tree, CHRISTmas presents, CHRISTmas music, none of that. How can a loudmouthed atheist that attacks every other thing that they deem Christian possibly rationalize celebrating Christmas??? How?? Talk about twisting logic and reason? Stop the hypocrisy. If you are an atheist, own it 12 months a year, not 11...take back all the presents, take down the tree, turn off that ",jingle bells" and especially " silent night"...tell your kids you dont believe in God, or Hypocrisy, so this year will be intellectually honest grinch style December....oh, and a Happy New Year.

Right?
Click to expand...

I'm confused on why you'd go to r/atheism and be surprised that atheists are talking about atheist things. It's like going to r/the_donald and being surprised that the red hats were doing red hat things. I wouldn't go to Publix and be offended that groceries were being sold.
 
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#14
#14
marcusluvsvols said:
Cv,

Dont consider you a pushy atheist, you are about 20 years older than most of the crowd i describe. Also respect your giving and that is a more "Christian" way to celebrate the holidays than the vast majority of self professing Christians will ever do. Respect here. I dont remember you ever being a militant, and attacking all things Christian. Cant say the same for all who post here though. Had a complete meltdown by one in the remote island tribe thread in the last week. Merry Christmas
Click to expand...

Merry Christmas, Marcus. Hope it will be a great one for you and yours.

BTW, The guy who went to that island was a dummy. It didn't take a whole lot of research to figure out 2 things, 1. Don't do that and 2. His presence was likely to endanger the natives even if they had rolled out the red carpet.
 
#15
#15
Grand Vol said:
Having been a part of that world, there typically are a wide range of non-profits offered for volunteer opportunities. And trust me, the "senior leadership" portion of that whole situation is a crock. First Sergeants get those kinds of requests all the time and forward them out appropriately. I'd dare say most never follow up on it. Even in the email it states "get with SSgt So-and-so for further details." Which is polite military speak for "I'm sending this out and it's no longer my problem."

.Mil folks, at least the USAF kind, are expected to do some form of community volunteer work for annual performance ratings. It's hard finding new and creative ways of motivating younger troops to get out. This seemed like a gift wrapped opportunity to give them something out of the norm and was a worthy cause as well. Handing out food baskets is about as secular as they come regardless of who's sponsoring it.

This guy causing the kerfuffle is a raging douche seeking attention and it has zero to do with touting one religion over another. If you asked 100 people about the background, I'd be willing to bet 99 of them would say "the Salvation Army is a religious organization?"
Click to expand...

I am sure it has been made more of than it deserves, but I do think the push back is useful sometimes because most people don't even realize the subtle ways the US endorses Christianity without even meaning to.
 
#16
#16
ClearwaterVol said:
I am sure it has been made more of than it deserves, but I do think the push back is useful sometimes because most people don't even realize the subtle ways the US endorses Christianity without even meaning to.
Click to expand...

You realize you're about to get your pee-pee smacked hard over this post, right?
 
#17
#17
  • The 88th Air Base Wing at Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio held an active shooter drill at the same time the 88th Medical Group was holding a separate mass casualty drill, but neither event was being coordinated with the other.
  • In the middle of the two exercises, an injured jogger arrived in the ER, screaming and crying, just as role-players pretending to be shooting victims began to arrive for the mass casualty drill.
  • A confused caller reported an active shooter, according to the executive summary of the investigation, resulting in a lockdown at the base hospital and more confusion.
  • It only got worse from there, as the exercise ultimately concluded with a security forces airman inexplicably pumping multiple rounds into a locked door.
Here's how an Air Force base active shooter exercise devolved into a chaotic mess, ending with an airman opening fire on a door
 
#18
#18
Mick said:
  • The 88th Air Base Wing at Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio held an active shooter drill at the same time the 88th Medical Group was holding a separate mass casualty drill, but neither event was being coordinated with the other.
  • In the middle of the two exercises, an injured jogger arrived in the ER, screaming and crying, just as role-players pretending to be shooting victims began to arrive for the mass casualty drill.
  • A confused caller reported an active shooter, according to the executive summary of the investigation, resulting in a lockdown at the base hospital and more confusion.
  • It only got worse from there, as the exercise ultimately concluded with a security forces airman inexplicably pumping multiple rounds into a locked door.
Here's how an Air Force base active shooter exercise devolved into a chaotic mess, ending with an airman opening fire on a door
Click to expand...

Was the door killed?
 
#22
#22
ClearwaterVol said:
I am sure it has been made more of than it deserves, but I do think the push back is useful sometimes because most people don't even realize the subtle ways the US endorses Christianity without even meaning to.
Click to expand...

Now that I'm at a computer where my words can flow like Shakespeare...

No, I'm not doing it in Iambic Pentameter...anyway.

Here's my major issue with this. It is not a "subtle" anything in regards to the military pushing any religion. Because they aren't pushing a religion. They aren't even pushing people to volunteer. The original emails, if you even took the time to look, said "volunteer" opportunity to hand out food baskets through the Salvation Army to those less fortunate. No mention of religion, no mention of Christianity, no mention of anything save "here it is troopers, volunteer if your leadership permits." Young troop had an idea of how to give back to the community, shot it up to her leadership, leadership sent it out.

Done. No endorsement of religion, no endorsement of anything except "good way to give back, folks." And I'd be willing to bet pennies to hundred dollar bills nobody, NOBODY gets in trouble for not volunteering. Even if this douchebag didn't cause a stink, there is nothing USAF leadership at any level can do other than mark down the annual reports on the community service portion. And trust me, there are dozens of non-secular opportunities to volunteer for each and every year.
 
#24
#24
Grand Vol said:
Now that I'm at a computer where my words can flow like Shakespeare...

No, I'm not doing it in Iambic Pentameter...anyway.

Here's my major issue with this. It is not a "subtle" anything in regards to the military pushing any religion. Because they aren't pushing a religion. They aren't even pushing people to volunteer. The original emails, if you even took the time to look, said "volunteer" opportunity to hand out food baskets through the Salvation Army to those less fortunate. No mention of religion, no mention of Christianity, no mention of anything save "here it is troopers, volunteer if your leadership permits." Young troop had an idea of how to give back to the community, shot it up to her leadership, leadership sent it out.

Done. No endorsement of religion, no endorsement of anything except "good way to give back, folks." And I'd be willing to bet pennies to hundred dollar bills nobody, NOBODY gets in trouble for not volunteering. Even if this douchebag didn't cause a stink, there is nothing USAF leadership at any level can do other than mark down the annual reports on the community service portion. And trust me, there are dozens of non-secular opportunities to volunteer for each and every year.
Click to expand...

Great post. I don't take much issue with it. Reread my first sentence. Merry christmas!
 
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