To Protect and to Serve II

Avery's trial lawyers and the jury members weren't the sharpest knives in the drawer either.

I have not watched Season 2, but what I saw in Season 1, the shorter of Avery’s trial lawyers was one of the best I’ve seen. He was actually really good.

Probably the most ****ed up part of the criminal justice system is how much burden it places on the defense attorney, and how ridiculously difficult that job is, especially in trial.

Brendan Dassey’s lawyers were absolute trash across the board and need to be disbarred. There’s nothing difficult about “don’t let your murder client talk to the police alone.” It broke my heart when his Habeas got shot down, that was the wrong decision.

It is important to counsel your client objectively about their risks and how strong their case is in terms of whether to plead guilty. Putting them in a room and having your investigator bully them into a plea is offensive and should merit discipline against the attorney.
 
I have not watched Season 2, but what I saw in Season 1, the shorter of Avery’s trial lawyers was one of the best I’ve seen. He was actually really good.

Probably the most ****ed up part of the criminal justice system is how much burden it places on the defense attorney, and how ridiculously difficult that job is, especially in trial.

Brendan Dassey’s lawyers were absolute trash across the board and need to be disbarred. There’s nothing difficult about “don’t let your murder client talk to the police alone.” It broke my heart when his Habeas got shot down, that was the wrong decision.

It is important to counsel your client objectively about their risks and how strong their case is in terms of whether to plead guilty. Putting them in a room and having your investigator bully them into a plea is offensive and should merit discipline against the attorney.
I strongly disagree here. The defense has the benefit of discovery months in advance. They have access to everything the prosecution does and they can say almost anything they wish. Now the investigator you speak of was terrible terrible terrible. But, I discredit it some because we were only shown what the producers wanted us tosee
 
I strongly disagree here. The defense has the benefit of discovery months in advance. They have access to everything the prosecution does and they can say almost anything they wish. Now the investigator you speak of was terrible terrible terrible. But, I discredit it some because we were only shown what the producers wanted us tosee

No. I’ve tried murder cases and DUIs and thefts etc... the defense can’t say “anything you wish” they have to have a theme and theory or counter narrative to contest the State’s narrative.

Discovery in Tennessee does not have to come “months in advance.” Often it shows up a few weeks days or hours before trial. Testimony is also always different than what people have said at pretrial hearings so discovery is often of little value. Mostly what I’ve gotten before setting the trial Is a few slip of paper generated by the police department that all have the exact same arrest report narrative on them so better hope you did a good investigation. The State always fights to keep important things hidden until trial, if they turn them over at all. Clients have no resources compared to the state. Most criminal defense attorneys are one man operations. Most clients can’t afford an investigator or experts. It’s difficult to get approval for state funding if the attorney is paid a fee.

The prosecution goes first and last at trial in Tennessee. Primacy and the last word are tremendous advantages because, if the defense attorney is not good, they end up chasing the prosecution’s story rather than telling their client’s story. And if they do manage to tell their own story, the prosecutor get to stand up and say whatever at the end and you get no rebuttal, even if what he says is a total mischaracterization.

Laws across the nation have been rewritten to be incredibly broad. This happened in TN in 1989.

Presumption of innocence is worthless anymore. People trust the police, you wouldn’t be here if you didn’t do something wrong. Etc.

Finally, just the fact that a persons freedom rides on one person’s ability to perform, think on their feet, and instantaneously remember and apply vast swaths of legal rules, and react to unexpected testimony or proof... When you consider that that person has been required to have absolutely no formal trial practice training or apprenticeship, other than going to school for 3 years, where they learn nothing about how to try a case, learn mostly how to appeal a case, and then they take a multiple choice and essay exam that only marginally covers criminal law and evidence and has absolutely no practical applications... Asking one well-trained man to do all that is ****ing exhausting and by the end of it’s harder than you think to tell a coherent story, especially when people’s testimony changed.

That’s a ****ed up system that is designed to end in conviction.

Some attorneys are naturally gifted at it, but it takes a lot out of you. That’s why you see prosecutors try cases in back to back weeks if they need to, but even when trials were commonplace, excellent and active defense attorneys would only try a few a year.
 
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Let's see, one is disgusting and illegal. The other is a lawful practice.

Want to play this game?
I'm sure I can find plenty of liberals out here that would consider gun ownership disgusting and needing to be outlawed.

Look, I'm not saying, necessarily, that what this sheriff did is wrong. I'm just saying that we need to be very careful doing things like this because the sword can cut both ways.
 
No. I’ve tried murder cases and DUIs and thefts etc... the defense can’t say “anything you wish” they have to have a theme and theory or counter narrative to contest the State’s narrative.

Discovery in Tennessee does not have to come “months in advance.” Often it shows up a few weeks days or hours before trial. Testimony is also always different than what people have said at pretrial hearings so discovery is often of little value. Mostly what I’ve gotten before setting the trial Is a few slip of paper generated by the police department that all have the exact same arrest report narrative on them so better hope you did a good investigation. The State always fights to keep important things hidden until trial, if they turn them over at all. Clients have no resources compared to the state. Most criminal defense attorneys are one man operations. Most clients can’t afford an investigator or experts. It’s difficult to get approval for state funding if the attorney is paid a fee.

The prosecution goes first and last at trial in Tennessee. Primacy and the last word are tremendous advantages because, if the defense attorney is not good, they end up chasing the prosecution’s story rather than telling their client’s story. And if they do manage to tell their own story, the prosecutor get to stand up and say whatever at the end and you get no rebuttal, even if what he says is a total mischaracterization.

Laws across the nation have been rewritten to be incredibly broad. This happened in TN in 1989.

Presumption of innocence is worthless anymore. People trust the police, you wouldn’t be here if you didn’t do something wrong. Etc.

Finally, just the fact that a persons freedom rides on one person’s ability to perform, think on their feet, and instantaneously remember and apply vast swaths of legal rules, and react to unexpected testimony or proof... When you consider that that person has been required to have absolutely no formal trial practice training or apprenticeship, other than going to school for 3 years, where they learn nothing about how to try a case, learn mostly how to appeal a case, and then they take a multiple choice and essay exam that only marginally covers criminal law and evidence and has absolutely no practical applications... Asking one well-trained man to do all that is ****ing exhausting and by the end of it’s harder than you think to tell a coherent story, especially when people’s testimony changed.

That’s a ****ed up system that is designed to end in conviction.

Some attorneys are naturally gifted at it, but it takes a lot out of you. That’s why you see prosecutors try cases in back to back weeks if they need to, but even when trials were commonplace, excellent and active defense attorneys would only try a few a year.
Ok, this is priceless. Defense attorneys are notorious for coming up with outlandish defense strategies (see OJ) and discovery is most certainly provided to the defense months prior to trial. If not then you’re not much of an attorney. The system seems unfair toboth sides at times andI could cite many prosecution examples like severance of cases and prejudicial information.
 
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Because cops are people to. Cops are a microcosm of society in general. There are great, good, meh, bad, very bad people in society. Some cops will inevitably be bad and very bad. Some will be good to great. The vast majority are probably meh. Hopefully the bad to very bad get rooted out and are served with the appropriate punishment they deserve. Also, hopefullythe good ones and great ones get the appropriate praise and rewards they deserve and inspire the meh ones to be good and great.
 
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Ok, this is priceless. Defense attorneys are notorious for coming up with outlandish defense strategies (see OJ) and discovery is most certainly provided to the defense months prior to trial. If not then you’re not much of an attorney. The system seems unfair toboth sides at times andI could cite many prosecution examples like severance of cases and prejudicial information.

I love it when you tell me that a wealthy celebrity bankrupting himself to discredit a police force for planting evidence, in one of the most notorious instances of investigative misconduct in recent memory, is indicative of a typical defendant’s advantages in the American criminal court system.

Also, I may very well be a terrible attorney, but Tennessee courts have held that a few hours was enough time for a defense attorney to review discovery, and have held that matters concerning the timely production of discovery are subject to a highly deferential standard of review. It’s not an issue that has any appellate merit. Trial judges have no incentive to set or enforce discovery deadlines.
 
Because cops are people to. Cops are a microcosm of society in general. There are great, good, meh, bad, very bad people in society. Some cops will inevitably be bad and very bad. Some will be good to great. The vast majority are probably meh. Hopefully the bad to very bad get rooted out and are served with the appropriate punishment they deserve. Also, hopefullythe good ones and great ones get the appropriate praise and rewards they deserve and inspire the meh ones to be good and great.

This is totally true. I know some really good police officers. I know some really bad ones. Most are in the middle.

The problem is the culture of brotherhood and righteous justification that causes the good ones to stay silent and the ones in the middle to circle the wagons when one of the bad ones gets outed.

JMO, and not sure how to change it.
 
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This is totally true. I know some really good police officers. I know some really bad ones. Most are in the middle.

The problem is the culture of brotherhood and righteous justification that causes the good ones to stay silent and the ones in the middle to circle the wagons when one of the bad ones gets outed.

JMO, and not sure how to change it.
I am friends with several cops. I have a hard time believing they'd cover up something or look the other way for a dirty cop. Could be wrong though. Was disappointed with one friend this year. Not from anything dirty other than he lied to me. It was over politics though.

Anyway, I wouldn't place the label of good cop on someone that looks away to protect a brother. I would at best place them in the meh category.
 
I love it when you tell me that a wealthy celebrity bankrupting himself to discredit a police force for planting evidence, in one of the most notorious instances of investigative misconduct in recent memory, is indicative of a typical defendant’s advantages in the American criminal court system.

Also, I may very well be a terrible attorney, but Tennessee courts have held that a few hours was enough time for a defense attorney to review discovery, and have held that matters concerning the timely production of discovery are subject to a highly deferential standard of review. It’s not an issue that has any appellate merit. Trial judges have no incentive to set or enforce discovery deadlines.
OJ was innocent and is once again searching for the real killer
 
I had to google him. Is this the San Francisco mayor case?
The assassination of Harvey Milk and George Moscone, defense based on diminished capacity due to alteration of diet due to severe depression.
 
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I love it when you tell me that a wealthy celebrity bankrupting himself to discredit a police force for planting evidence, in one of the most notorious instances of investigative misconduct in recent memory, is indicative of a typical defendant’s advantages in the American criminal court system.

Also, I may very well be a terrible attorney, but Tennessee courts have held that a few hours was enough time for a defense attorney to review discovery, and have held that matters concerning the timely production of discovery are subject to a highly deferential standard of review. It’s not an issue that has any appellate merit. Trial judges have no incentive to set or enforce discovery deadlines.
Sorry about what I said. You are most likely a great attorney practicing in a backwards location. I have never been in a trial where the defense was not provided everything months or up to a year in advance. I have never seen a USA or a state prosecutor withhold discovery, ever.
 
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RIP Sgt. Ron Helus, a 29-year veteran
ron-helus.jpg
 
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