Recruiting Forum Football Talk LX

[vosams]

I liked Dooley and Butch both. They both brought things to the table I thought the program needed at the time. Ultimately, I was wrong about them. Neither worked out. I appreciate that they tried their hardest. I hope Pruitt can do better.

I gave up on Doolz when that idiot put 12 men on the field vs LS

 

[StoVol]

I gave up on Doolz when that idiot put 12 men on the field vs LSU.

13

 

[Vols4us]

I agree with you. But they didn't know until they knew...I'm sure they both thought they could fix it until it became obvious they couldn't, in other words.

I look at it like this. I'm a professor at a good-sized university in Georgia that is not UGA. If I got a super lucrative offer from, say, Princeton or Harvard or Stanford or Michigan or Cal or Yale, which would be probably the professorial equivalent in my field of a head coaching position at a place like Tennessee, I would sink my teeth in and give it my all to prove to myself, and to everyone else, that I've got what it takes to succeed at the highest level. But maybe, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get my research to hit at the highest ranked publications. Ultimately, at the end of my probation, I get the axe. It would suck. And it would reveal to me that maybe I'm not cut out for those top-tier schools. But I would like to think it doesn't diminish who I am as a person and I would like to think all the folks at X University don't hate me just because I came up short of their expectations.

The man who hasn't ever failed is the man who really never tried to do anything that would test him. That's why I'm not getting into the Butch as intern thing. He will probably never get a gig anything like UT again. But he will probably be better at his career for having humbled himself and kept trying.

 

[Glitch]

I agree with you. But they didn't know until they knew...I'm sure they both thought they could fix it until it became obvious they couldn't, in other words.

I look at it like this. I'm a professor at a good-sized university in Georgia that is not UGA. If I got a super lucrative offer from, say, Princeton or Harvard or Stanford or Michigan or Cal or Yale, which would be probably the professorial equivalent in my field of a head coaching position at a place like Tennessee, I would sink my teeth in and give it my all to prove to myself, and to everyone else, that I've got what it takes to succeed at the highest level. But maybe, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get my research to hit at the highest ranked publications. Ultimately, at the end of my probation, I get the axe. It would suck. And it would reveal to me that maybe I'm not cut out for those top-tier schools. But I would like to think it doesn't diminish who I am as a person and I would like to think all the folks at X University don't hate me just because I came up short of their expectations.

I get what you are saying but your research doesn't generate the revenue that a successful P5 football team generates. There are hundreds of other coaches, trainers, support staff, and other student athletes that depend on UT having a successful football program that is generating revenue. I really don't blame Butch or Dools. They were offered an opportunity and took it. I blame the idiots who were paid to hire the best SEC coach they could find and gave us mid-major so so's instead.

 

[GoBigOrange86]

The man who hasn't ever failed is the man who really never tried to do anything that would test him. That's why I'm not getting into the Butch as intern thing. He will probably never get a gig anything like UT again. But he will probably be better at his career for having humbled himself and kept trying.

I genuinely hope he finds success and finds something that makes him happy. I bear him no ill will. It just didn't work out.

 

[Glitch]

There's more to life than money. It helps, no doubt, but to try your best at the thing you want to devote your life to and fail...I'm not sure any amount of money can take away that hurt.

It just means you weren't meant for that. Dust yourself off and find what you really WERE meant for. I speak from very recent experience.


And like charger said, it would be nice to get a severance for failing at something I really just wasn't that good at.

 

[GoBigOrange86]

I get what you are saying but your research doesn't generate the revenue that a successful P5 football team generates. There are hundreds of other coaches, trainers, support staff, and other student athletes that depend on UT having a successful football program that is generating revenue. I really don't blame Butch or Dools. They were offered an opportunity and took it. I blame the idiots who were paid to hire the best SEC coach they could find and gave us mid-major so so's instead.

Hey, blame the higher-ups all you want. But we were in a crap position in both 2010 and 2012. If I had my druthers, we'd have made Kippy the interim for the 2010 season and done a search in earnest. But in 2012, what choice did we have? Gruden was never coming and our first choice turned us down (and then proceeded to crap his pants at Texas, FWIW). If someone came to me and said, "We're putting our faith in you to lead this premier program," I'd take it as a signal that I had something worth offering and I'd give it my damnedest to make it work.

That's all Dooley and Jones did. I don't fault them for thinking they were ready. I think you and I are maybe more on the same page than we realize.

 

[Glitch]

I genuinely hope he finds success and finds something that makes him happy. I bear him no ill will. It just didn't work out.

I can agree with this post. I wish no ill on Butch or Dools. I just wish our AD hadn't experimented with them at our school.

 

[Vols4us]

I genuinely hope he finds success and finds something that makes him happy. I bear him no ill will. It just didn't work out.

Agree. He probably has a lot of regrets. But the man has a family that loves him and he still wants to provide and do the best he can. He's doing about all anybody would hire him do after watching the collapse.

 

[GoBigOrange86]

It just means you weren't meant for that. Dust yourself off and find what you really WERE meant for. I speak from very recent experience.


And like charger said, it would be nice to get a severance for failing at something I really just wasn't that good at.

For sure, I totally agree with this. But if this is what you DREAMED of, if you dreamed of taking a premier program to glory, and then you fell on your face, it's got to hurt. You say you speak from experience, so you know that hurt. The biggest severance package in the world wouldn't erase it. It can soften the blow, certainly. But if it's something you really really wanted, if it was about more than money, then it still hurts and always will.

 

[scvolfan7]

Butch is responsible for 4 of Tennessee’s 6 loses. We got our a$$es handed to us so often with that reject because players would just quit. Without Josh Dobbs he would have been fired in 2015. The guy won 1 game without Dobbs! Dools was lame but we didn’t get embarrassed as much with him and I could at least watch his press conferences. Butch’s press conferences turned us into the #1 meme in college football

 

[Glitch]

Hey, blame the higher-ups all you want. But we were in a crap position in both 2010 and 2012. If I had my druthers, we'd have made Kippy the interim for the 2010 season and done a search in earnest. But in 2012, what choice did we have? Gruden was never coming and our first choice turned us down (and then proceeded to crap his pants at Texas, FWIW). If someone came to me and said, "We're putting our faith in you to lead this premier program," I'd take it as a signal that I had something worth offering and I'd give it my damnedest to make it work.

That's all Dooley and Jones did. I don't fault them for thinking they were ready. I think you and I are maybe more on the same page than we realize.

Phil Fulmer found a dang good football coach in less than a month. It remains to be seen if he will have success on the next level but he is very well respected and seems to be doing things the right way.

 

[volfanCLT]

I gave up on Doolz when that idiot put 12 men on the field vs LSU.

I broke my cellular device that afternoon

 

[Vols4us]

I can agree with this post. I wish no ill on Butch or Dools. I just wish our AD hadn't experimented with them at our school.

You said the key words - our AD experimented. Hart pulled another panic hire just like Hamilton did.

 

[GoBigOrange86]

I can agree with this post. I wish no ill on Butch or Dools. I just wish our AD hadn't experimented with them at our school.

And that's totally fine. Though, like I said in an earlier post, I still think in 2012 Butch was about the best we were going to do. 2010 and Dooley is a different story. But Jones came in here with the best HC record of any coach since Johnny Majors. He'd won, not at the highest level, but at a respectable level, at every place he'd been when he got this job. And his recruiting blew us all out of the water. There were so many reasons to think he'd succeed, but he just didn't.

Sometimes that happens. We with the benefit of hindsight can say, "Well, he was never the right fit," but AT THE TIME, I really thought he was going to turn it around.

 

[Vols4us]

I broke my cellular device that afternoon

I couldn't even get mad. I laughed so hard I fell in the floor. I mean, what HC of a P5 program actually does something like that other than Les Miles - who they were playing against?! Miles would have still won the game though.

I thought to myself - 13? At least he really wanted to win so bad that he sneaked extra guys in. Then I saw the replay of the sidelines and lost it again.

 

[Glitch]

And that's totally fine. Though, like I said in an earlier post, I still think in 2012 Butch was about the best we were going to do. 2010 and Dooley is a different story. But Jones came in here with the best HC record of any coach since Johnny Majors. He'd won, not at the highest level, but at a respectable level, at every place he'd been when he got this job. And his recruiting blew us all out of the water. There were so many reasons to think he'd succeed, but he just didn't.

Sometimes that happens. We with the benefit of hindsight can say, "Well, he was never the right fit," but AT THE TIME, I really thought he was going to turn it around.

I'm sure many on here will tell you that I supported Butch long past when I probably should have. I wanted him to be the guy and dreaded more turmoil for this program. Our AD could have done better than Dools or Butch. They either refused to stand up to the Hadlams or were focused on the wrong things. At UT, the AD's first priority is to find a great football coach. We could have done much better both times if they had truly been willing to make the job attractive enough.

 

[GoBigOrange86]

I couldn't even get mad. I laughed so hard I fell in the floor. I mean, what HC of a P5 program actually does something like that other than Les Miles - who they were playing against?! Miles would have still won the game though.

I thought to myself - 13? At least he really wanted to win so bad that he sneaked extra guys in. Then I saw the replay of the sidelines and lost it again.

I was in grad school at Colorado in 2010. I had left the Tennessee game on the TV to head to the CU-Georgia game, but I was getting regular updates. When I got into Folsom Field, I had crap for reception, but as I was finding a seat I noticed a guy with a Tennessee beanie looking at his phone and I overheard him say, "Holy crap, we just beat LSU." I ran over to him, grabbed his shoulder, and said "What?! We won?!" He said, "Yep, we beat LSU."

I ran out of that stadium pumping my fist, hooting and hollering. I passed a couple of my professors on the way out who waved at me and were greeted in return by me screaming "WE BEAT LSU!!!" in their faces. I called my brother as soon as I got reception and we celebrated on the phone with each other, taking this as the confirmation we'd been waiting for that Tennessee wasn't going anywhere and the best was yet to come.

And then, within seconds, my brother says, "Wait. Hold on." I stood outside Folsom Field, on the phone with my brother, listening as the glorious victory I was savoring was snatched away.

I've never been so deflated. I still rushed the field after Colorado beat Georgia, but I did so with quite a frown on my face.

 

[GoBigOrange86]

I'm sure many on here will tell you that I supported Butch long past when I probably should have. I wanted him to be the guy and dreaded more turmoil for this program. Our AD could have done better than Dools or Butch. They either refused to stand up to the Hadlams or were focused on the wrong things. At UT, the AD's first priority is to find a great football coach. We could have done much better both times if they had truly been willing to make the job attractive enough.

Perhaps. Let's just cross our fingers and hope Pruitt has what it takes to get our Vols to where they belong.

 

[Vols4us]

And that's totally fine. Though, like I said in an earlier post, I still think in 2012 Butch was about the best we were going to do. 2010 and Dooley is a different story. But Jones came in here with the best HC record of any coach since Johnny Majors. He'd won, not at the highest level, but at a respectable level, at every place he'd been when he got this job. And his recruiting blew us all out of the water. There were so many reasons to think he'd succeed, but he just didn't.

Sometimes that happens. We with the benefit of hindsight can say, "Well, he was never the right fit," but AT THE TIME, I really thought he was going to turn it around.

I questioned if he would succeed because of the offensive system. That CMU stuff reminded me too much of the Clawfense mess. Everything was run on timing and using quick O-linemen that were not overly physical. I don't think you can trick your way to winning in the SEC. Dobbs was the wild card though.

 

[GoBigOrange86]

I questioned if he would succeed because of the offensive system. That CMU stuff reminded me too much of the Clawfense mess. Everything was run on timing and using quick O-linemen that were not overly physical. I don't think you can trick your way to winning in the SEC. Dobbs was the wild card though.

And you were right. Dobbs made 2015 and 2016 special, even though they could have been so much more with a proper offensive system. But at the time I wanted to believe Butch could find a way to make it work. I wish he had.

 

[VolGee4]

Butch Jones hired Larry Scott, Walt Wells, Mike Canales and Kevin Beard lol. All four ended up being terrible hires. Neither one were good football coaches, but I think on the field, Dooley was better at X's and O's/football IQ. To say Jones was bad at this level in those two areas would be an understatement. Saban hired him two different times, and tried to a third time. Best Jones could do was get on as an intern.

You are spouting things that had nothing to do with their coaching records. We all know you hate Butch Jones, but he twice won 9 games. Dooley didn't come close. You must be too young to remember his 3 years. Neither is a high level coach, but the data is quite clear who was better at UT and frankly, better before he came here.

 

[Chief Vol 13]

Dooley lost to uk too, wash. Butch also beat a top 10 sc team. Atleast butch won bowl games. Getting hired by saban doesnt quantify how good of a coach someone is. Dooley was puppet at dallas. Dez bryant was the real coach of the wide receivers at dallas (you seen the clip of dooley backing down to dez). And how come all of the cowboys wr declined in production when dooley arrived?

Butch also won a championship at cincy and cmu (if memory serves me correctly). All in all, what has dooley won as a college football head coach? I will wait again... if you (which I already did for you in a previous post) compare butch's and dooley's time here, butch is superior to dooley in every category other than your feelings.

You don't think Saban choosing to hire a guy says anything about said coach? Saban doesn't hire bums. Especially not two different times. The only bum he would hire would be for an intern that knocks down 35k a year. The Dez Bryant being the coach stuff is an opinion on your part. Ask anyone who knows anything about the league, and they'd tell you it's extremely difficult to coach diva wideouts like Bryant. Some of Dooley's receivers declined in production, not all. If you keep a job in the NFL for 5 years you have to be bringing at least a little something to the table.

 

[nicksjuzunk]

Hmm... discussion of Dooley and Butch, huh

Good luck gents, I’ll seek my entertainment elsewhere

 

[BigZiti09]

Assistant coach and head coach are two different things.

Butch was better than Dooley as a head coach. Stop pretending.